Taxes, time to pay your fair share
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tjamz;191903 wrote:
another interesting article I came across....not necessarily relating to anything:LOL, this thread just went wildly out of control again. ha!
It is a interesting article, I'd have to say they are allowing too much for housing. You can easily get a decent place for at least $100-150 less than that. $578 a month for transportation! WTF?!!?! You can buy a $1500-2000 beater and be fine. I'd say $250 a month is plenty for transportation.
But, my main beef is.... Why is this "generic" 24 year old lady a single mom with 2 kids (ages 4 and 6)? WTF was she thinking? Ok, sometime the Father may have been killed in an accident or whatever.
DaveH
'94 Supra- 7.77 @ 176mph -
I think the #1 problem with healthcare is that individuals don't know what it costs.
Nobody ever says "no" to going to the doctor, doing whatever the doctor suggests, etc. Part of the reason is that nobody directly feels/knows the cost of care -- their very-low-co-pay or very-low-deductible insurance pays.
All of us know what getting car work done costs.. and everytime we "need" something done to our cars, we think... "do i just skip this, do i do it but cover it out of pcoket.... do i do an alternate repair for now and cover it out of pocket... or do i go with what the body shop says and submit the whole thing to insurance?"
people also know that high deductible auto policies save them money.
people seem to forget what they know about car insurance when they think about health insurance. The pricing system is the essential instrument of marketplace effectiveness in a capitalist system.. and when the consumers don't know what something costs, they don't know enough to decide to say no.
effectively, this means that the cost has no reason to decline. Naturally this is unsustainable and healthcare costs have exploded.
The #1 thing I'd do is completely decouple health insurance from employment. There are so many people that are choosing a job or staying in a job because that is where their health insurance comes from. If you've tried to get health coverage as an independent entity, you know how spendy it is and what a hassle it is. This contributes to peoples job insecurity, and most companies only provide a basic health plan with few options. If you give individuals conrol of their health insurance, more of them will choose high deductible policies. This means fewer claims are filed, and it means people are close to the true-price of services... meaning that they'll tend to use less of them or use them more wisely.
This will of course tend to decreease the demand for health services... and it will also decrease the amount of hassle providers go through filing insurance paperwork on an $80 visit. So generally, with fewer low-cost transations, and fewer transactions over all, and the administrative overhead per transaction going down.. it should be possible for providers to charge less (or be more efficient at their current price levels)
There's a private clinic I've read about that doesn't accept any insurance whatsoever.. just cash. Their costs are about 30% of usual-and-customary-cost. They make plenty of money, and their customers save lots of money.
Government health care moves the problem in the opposite direction. While people can get a vague idea of what things cost and what their options are today... once you've got government care... everybody's health is everybody's problem.. so its nobody's problem, and nobody knows what they're spending on themselves. In every "buffet" style service situation, there are some people that take tremendous advantage of the buffet.. to their own detriment and to the detriment of those that subsidize the whole affair.
Foreign heads of state that have universal healthcare generally come to the US to get work done on themselves. That's all you need to know.
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DaveH;191913 wrote:
LOL, this thread just went wildly out of control again. ha!It is a interesting article, I'd have to say they are allowing too much for housing. You can easily get a decent place for at least $100-150 less than that. $578 a month for transportation! WTF?!!?! You can buy a $1500-2000 beater and be fine. I'd say $250 a month is plenty for transportation.
But, my main beef is.... Why is this "generic" 24 year old lady a single mom with 2 kids (ages 4 and 6)? WTF was she thinking? Ok, sometime the Father may have been killed in an accident or whatever.
I didn't read the whole article, but I can say that if I were in rural ND, I would not want to trust my beater vehicle to travel ~20 miles to/from work (fairly common in central ND) in the winter....especially if I had to have my children riding with me. I'm assuming that the article figures things above the minimum and closer to the average....but even if it didn't
40miles/day = 200+/week
beater car gets ~20mpg, so 10+gallons/week $30/week...so $120/month....just to get to work
odds are there will be car payments, even on the beater...figure $150/month for 2 years...then repeat as car is worn out.
wear/tear= $50/month (guessing...no idea actually)
Insurance on financed vehicle=$75/month
figure another 400 miles/month for misc travel (sporting events for kids, daycare, shopping in bigger towns to save money on clothing/food/etc.. etc, etc, etc.....) so 20 gallons/month = $60total= $455/month
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I was just thinking that this would be in Fargo, if it was rural North Dakota the mother/kids would be living with her parents. There is no other reason for her to live in rural ND.
:icon_albino:
tjamz;191922 wrote:
I didn't read the whole article, but I can say that if I were in rural ND, I would not want to trust my beater vehicle to travel ~20 miles to/from work (fairly common in central ND) in the winter....especially if I had to have my children riding with me. I'm assuming that the article figures things above the minimum and closer to the average....but even if it didn't40miles/day = 200+/week
beater car gets ~20mpg, so 10+gallons/week $30/week...so $120/month....just to get to work
odds are there will be car payments, even on the beater...figure $150/month for 2 years...then repeat as car is worn out.
wear/tear= $50/month (guessing...no idea actually)
Insurance on financed vehicle=$75/month
figure another 400 miles/month for misc travel (sporting events for kids, daycare, shopping in bigger towns to save money on clothing/food/etc.. etc, etc, etc.....) so 20 gallons/month = $60total= $455/month
DaveH
'94 Supra- 7.77 @ 176mph -
tjamz;191902 wrote:
so the average wage you list is ~$12/hour. While that is true in FARGO, it is not true of everywhere. To get the level of insurance I have (which honestly isn't that great...high deductibles, high co-pay) from BCBS I would have to pay $625/month. At $12/hour you earn $1920/month before taxes...figure ~30% for taxes so you took home $1344/month. Average rent in fargo is what? $500/month minimum? so now you have $1125/month in expenses before you eat/own a car/pay for renters insurance/car insurance/etc.... If you can do all those things for $209/month you are better at saving money than anyone I know. Yes, there are employers that pay for your health insurance, and yes, you could maybe knock ~$200/month off the insurance if single (more kids generally doesn't add to the cost....1 costs as much as 20)You are just setting yourself up for failure man...if you dont attempt to save money, aka cheaper rent, look hard for insurance, have your car paid off, etc...saving money isn't that hard. I don't get why it's such a hard concept to grasp...
If I didn't go to school, i'd prolly be work around 55hrs/ week making approx 10/hour...lets say i get 30% taken out for taxes...so after tax roughly $450-500 a week after taxes (lets just say i make 500 for simplicity)...$625/month gets you insurance...out of around $2,000/month that then leaves you with 1,375...rent/house payment can be $500...but that's if you are the single person that lives there...chances are, you will either have others live with you, or rent would be less (prolly around 300-400/month)...we'll just go with $375...this leaves you $1000 for food, gas, and w/e in case your vehicle breaks...if somebody can't adjust thier living to that much, based on their income, then they deserve to live in poverty or whatever. It all comes down to laziness. If somebody has to learn the hard way and live low, then that's their problem. I don't think it's right that I should have to pay for somebody else's lack of responsibility when it comes to handling money...
BTW Chuck...you do realize how much teachers in the upper midwest make these days right?...mid $20k's (which is what I and you both used for an example of income)...and guess what...they have families and can survive even when still single...so i still dont get what the point is that you are trying to make...
Bottom line...you can make a living in the U.S. if you are not lazy...PERIOD
I do agree that welfare can be used for good...but the system is so messed up that it gets abused cough several (not all) bosnians cough
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torbs;191940 wrote:
BTW Chuck...you do realize how much teachers in the upper midwest make these days right?...mid $20k's (which is what I and you both used for an example of income)...and guess what...they have families and can survive even when still single...so i still dont get what the point is that you are trying to make...Try mid 30's (base pay) and they work 9/12's of the year. They get additional cash for being coaches, assisting in extra-curricular activities, etc.
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StangerBanger96;191941 wrote:
Try mid 30's (base pay) and they work 9/12's of the year. They get additional cash for being coaches, assisting in extra-curricular activities, etc.The Average pay is in the mid 30's ($37k to be exact)...but beginning pay is $24k...i shoulda clarified that prior...
however, it is possible to live off of 20k/year if you learn how to handle your finances...that's what im trying to get at.
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torbs;191940 wrote:
Bottom line...you can make a living in the U.S. if you are not lazy...PERIOD*The only exceptions is for people with disabilities, ie: physical or mental handicaps. That is what welfare is for, to help the people who can't help themselves.
DaveH
'94 Supra- 7.77 @ 176mph -
DaveH;191946 wrote:
The only exceptions is for people with disabilities, ie: physical or mental handicaps. That is what welfare is for, to help the people who can't help themselves.Yeah, this is true and I'm not denying it...just saying that it's possible to make a living off of $20k/year for any person who doesn't have a disability, etc...I'm all for programs to help people who deserve it...but I'm also for programs that also weed out the people that take the system for granted.
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torbs;191947 wrote:
...but I'm also for programs that also weed out the people that take the system for granted.Like the weekly Hispanic person that would come into McDonalds, hand in an application and flat out tell the manager that they didn't want to be hired...just had to show they were looking for work so they could continue getting that coveted welfare check.
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that's too bad, but i'd be hestiant to mention that the person was hispanic unless you think it was relevant.
percentage wise, the largest demographic of welfare recipients are white.
percentage wise, the demographic with the highest # of small business owners are hispanics
I'd rather keep the hard working mexicans and unload the lazy whites
Or said differently, I'd rather encourage hard workers to stay here, and to help "relocate" the lazy. Irrespective of their race/identity/group affiliation -
You are just setting yourself up for failure man...if you dont attempt to save money, aka cheaper rent, look hard for insurance, have your car paid off, etc...saving money isn't that hard. I don't get why it's such a hard concept to grasp...
Concept is easy to grasp. Reality is that somehow you have to pay for that car BEFORE it can be paid off, until then you are looking at full coverage, which is not cheap if you are under 25 and male....heaven forbid you have some driving infractions.
If I didn't go to school, i'd prolly be work around 55hrs/ week making approx 10/hour...lets say i get 30% taken out for taxes...so after tax roughly $450-500 a week after taxes (lets just say i make 500 for simplicity)...$625/month gets you insurance...out of around $2,000/month that then leaves you with 1,375...rent/house payment can be $500...but that's if you are the single person that lives there...chances are, you will either have others live with you, or rent would be less (prolly around 300-400/month)...we'll just go with $375...this leaves you $1000 for food, gas, and w/e in case your vehicle breaks...if somebody can't adjust thier living to that much, based on their income, then they deserve to live in poverty or whatever. It all comes down to laziness. If somebody has to learn the hard way and live low, then that's their problem. I don't think it's right that I should have to pay for somebody else's lack of responsibility when it comes to handling money...
Not everyone can work 55 hours per week. Some people have other obligations (child care, etc...) that makes it impossible to work the 55 hours.
BTW Chuck...you do realize how much teachers in the upper midwest make these days right?...mid $20k's (which is what I and you both used for an example of income)...and guess what...they have families and can survive even when still single...so i still dont get what the point is that you are trying to make...
Dustin addressed this already. Aside from that teaching jobs come with state funded healthcare (essentially...employer sponsored, but it is state money...) which is a big help.
Bottom line...you can make a living in the U.S. if you are not lazy...PERIOD
I've never said you can't.
I do agree that welfare can be used for good...but the system is so messed up that it gets abused cough several (not all) bosnians cough
They can only do that for so long though. Welfare reform has mandated limiting access to public assistance for a<u> lifetime total of only 60 months.</u> So essentially they get 5 years to get off the program. Period.
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DaveH;191946 wrote:
The only exceptions is for people with disabilities, ie: physical or mental handicaps. That is what welfare is for, to help the people who can't help themselves.I agree 100%.
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thrash;191958 wrote:
that's too bad, but i'd be hestiant to mention that the person was hispanic unless you think it was relevant.percentage wise, the largest demographic of welfare recipients are white.
percentage wise, the demographic with the highest # of small business owners are hispanics
I'd rather keep the hard working mexicans and unload the lazy whites
Or said differently, I'd rather encourage hard workers to stay here, and to help "relocate" the lazy. Irrespective of their race/identity/group affiliation I debated whether or not I'd throw that in there...It was my personal experience though that the people who did it were Hispanic. Unfortunately for everyone, I don't give two piles of shit about political correctness. If the people coming in were mostly white, mostly black, mostly asian, I'd have said that instead of Hispanic.
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