"Sicko".....just finished watching it..

[Guest]

Ironically, Dave asked for one gov't program in this country that works well.....Medicaid, if you are BROKE. I spent 2 years in Rugby, ND processing insurance for Johnson Clinic and can say w/o a doubt that the Medicaid system is by far the best health care you can get...zero deductibles/copay, access to many of the best local doctors (we refered them to Mayo and other clinics regularly), free prescription drugs, etc.... And really, it wasn't the "people working the system" for the most part that got these benefits, most times it was the 70+ year old farmer who fell seriously ill, moved into a nursing home or LTC facility and was forced to sell his assets to stay someplace where he could be cared for. Many of these people I knew well as hard working, non-handout-taking people. Were there a few abusers, yeah, I'd be lying if I said there wasn't, but they were the super-minority (less than 2% I'd say).

Another ironic twist is that I don't like the idea of gov't sponsored healthcare. I'd <u>maybe</u> be ok with a tax credit every year to help offset insurance costs, but I don't want the Gov't involved in setting up my policy for myself or my family.... (I also worked w/ HMO's there.....MAJOR problems when you let someone else control when/where you can go to the Dr. and what specialist you can see, etc....)

[thrash]

we are ranked #37 by the W.H.O. as far as overall healthcare standards.

We're also ranked behind like 30 european places in terms of free-press, blah blah blah.

The sorts of euro-snobs that sit around ranking countries at different stuff seem to measure different things than I woud. But then, lots of people that don't live here can't imagine how we do. I was talking to some tweens in a classroom in germany and they were talking about how they'd feeel completely unsafe in the US beacuse you never knew who had a gun and would just shoot you... it was hillarious. Many of "them" just don't "get" us.

I'm not so ignorant that i've never left the US, or that i think the US is awesome at everything. I have, and it isn't. There is no perfect system. Regarding healthcare, people are in a big hurry to trade one set of problems for a different set of problems.. and not many people have lived under both systems and have really had dual-experience.

[bubba]

The way I see it is that if the government was in charge of healthcare, i'm sure they won't be paying the doctors near as much as they get right now. Now I know most people in the situation that are in a job and don't get paid near as much as they should don't really give a crap about the job and don't perform to their full ability. If I got paid a little less than I do at my job I probably wouldn't be doing shit...It all comes down to people work as hard as you pay them. If the government were to foot the salaries of all the doctors in this country, at the amount they get paid now, I don't think they could raise taxes near enough to cover it...

[Guest]

bubba;193871 wrote:
The way I see it is that if the government was in charge of healthcare, i'm sure they won't be paying the doctors near as much as they get right now. Now I know most people in the situation that are in a job and don't get paid near as much as they should don't really give a crap about the job and don't perform to their full ability. If I got paid a little less than I do at my job I probably wouldn't be doing shit...It all comes down to people work as hard as you pay them. If the government were to foot the salaries of all the doctors in this country, at the amount they get paid now, I don't think they could raise taxes near enough to cover it...

The company I work for charges more per 1 hour visit than most doctors/specialists in the area. Does that mean that the gov't should pay for my company as well? Think about this, the doctors/surgeons/specialists at Meritcare (for example) have to bring in enough money to not only support themselves, but also to cover the insurance that they need to have (malpractice and others), the wages of all of their staff, including nurses, anesthesiologists, CNA's, Receptionists, Janitors, operating expenses, utilities, etc... A good Dr. earns every penny he makes

[bubba]

I'm kinda confused chuck, my post was a reason why we should NOT have government funded healthcare. And from the stand point that our gov't probably wouldnt be paying the doctors enough money for an incentive to work as hard as they could... I never said they got paid to much, I meant the gov't would most likely end up paying them too little. I believe they earn every penny as well...

[24valvenotak]

thrash;193781 wrote:
you should go read up on the "logical fallacies" series of articles on Wikipedia, since you're commiting several of them.

I'm not saying America's healthcare system is awesome. Nor am I saying that it's either our current scheme or communism. You (and others) seem to be impliying that I'm saying at least one of the two.

Receiving health care is not a right. For it to be a "right" that your government grants you, that means your government has to be willing to put a gun to the head of a doctor to MAKE that person provide it to you.

In the same sense, "food" is not a right and neither is a job.

Yes, you SHOULD have to pay to see a doctor because doctors are providing you a valuable service. Yes, your health has a cost.

Now, the question is... do you want to decide what that cost is, or do you want the government to decide for you?

It's fine to criticize some peoples health care in the US... criticism causes improvement.

It's not fine to demand universal or socialized medicine... because that demonstrates ignorance at best, or malicious stupidity at its worst.

1. how are you not saying its awesome? you are arguing that it is in fact number one, despite the fact the rest of the world thinks otherwise.

2. if its not a right then why did some illegal guy get his finger back for free?

3. i know what it costs, and for what i have recieved it is far too much. in fact, it is utterly pathetic.

4. im citisizing it and your putting your gramatically correct foot in it for speaking out. if speaking out leads to improvement like you just said, quit saying how terrible micheal moore is because, after all, he is just trying to make a difference.

5. if all the people in countries with socialized healthcare love it, or perhaps more importantly are not all dead, how can you call it ignorant and stupid? just because it may not work for the US doesnt mean its wrong. thats the attitude that has caused the rest of the world to dispise us.

[StangerBanger96]

I wonder if there is a statistic that shows purely how happy citizens are with their healthcare in their country...nothing more nothing less. I'd be willing to bet the US is on par with the rest of the world.

[DaveH]

24valvenotak;193886 wrote:

1. how are you not saying its awesome? you are arguing that it is in fact number one, despite the fact the rest of the world thinks otherwise.

I will go ahead and say that our health system is awesome. We have the best doctors, the most advanced facilities and we lead the world in new medical technology by a long shot. The problem is not the health care provider, it is all the crap surrounding it. The legal aspect is huge, for sure. But in my opinion health insurance itself is probably the biggest problem. Health insurance is basically socialism, it has taken away the free market part of our health system. People either buy or get insurance from their employer, and then at that point they give two shits less what anything costs because big brother (insurance) is paying for it. When is the last time anyone here went in for a checkup (or any other doctor visit) and shopped around to get the best price?

[StangerBanger96]

DaveH;193895 wrote:
I will go ahead and say that our health system is awesome. We have the best doctors, the most advanced facilities and we lead the world in new medical technology by a long shot.

Brought to you in part by a NON-socialized healthcare system. We are the world leader in R&D on new drugs/treatments. Socialize our healthcare system and wave byebye to all that. We R&D it, generic brands produce it and sell it WAY below the "name brand" price through Canada or a generic name.

[thrash]

Something can be #1 and still suck. The US is #1 and still has stuff about it that sucks. When you're on top, the goal is to improve (or simply suck less, said differently), not to gaze downward and think about how much better than #2 you are.

Re-read what i said. Healthcare is not a right, because in order to guarantee it you have to be willing to kill someone else. When giving you something would require enslaving someone else, that's slavery. We've abolished the right to own slaves in this country.

Our private care system ends up taking care of lots of people that can't pay, for better or worse. I think there's some kind of balance between hospitals with locked doors vs government mandated salaries, standard treatments, rationed care, etc.

I don't mind Michael Moore criticising things. He's just a dumbass and doesn't know what he's asking for... that's all.

I think a lot of people in other countries don't know what they're missing. If you read news reports from them you'll see stuff like... "those infavor of continuing universal care tout its advantages like being able to see a practicioner within 6 weeks of requesting an appointmnet"

6 weeks ?

People generally develop a level of satisfaction based on what they are accustomed to, not some absolute metric.

Also, irrespective of how much people like thier systems, none of them are sustainable and they have lower performance than what we're already getting.

[Guest]

thrash;193911 wrote:
I think a lot of people in other countries don't know what they're missing. If you read news reports from them you'll see stuff like... "those infavor of continuing universal care tout its advantages like being able to see a practicioner within 6 weeks of requesting an appointmnet"

6 weeks ?

That's better than I get at Meritcare actually (non-emergency of course). I once called in to have a wart removed, had to wait 2 months before I could get in (was willing to go to any of their clinics even.....not just one particular one w/ a particular Dr....any clinic). I've also had to wait over 6 weeks to get in for a complete annual physical (this was to my regular family practitioner) so I'd say we are already there in this country.

[amicheze]

thrash;193911 wrote:
Healthcare is not a right

No. Definitely not. Especially not since the country was founded on the right to LIFE, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. You can definitely have life without health care. Oh wait..

Health insurance isn't socialization. Health insurance is capitalism. If it were socialism, everyone would have it, not just those that could afford it.

Why exactly is their life expectancy higher than ours if we have so much better health care?

Personally, I'd rather be able to see a doctor (make an appointment for) within 6 weeks than not at all. You can't be serious in thinking that if someone has an emergency, they'd have to wait 6 weeks to see one.

[StangerBanger96]

amicheze;193919 wrote:
No. Definitely not. Especially not since the country was founded on the right to LIFE, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. You can definitely have life without health care. Oh wait..

And I will only be happy if I have a Ferrari, a supermodel wife, 1000 acres of land, and free gasoline...therefore by your reasoning the Government should force people to give me these things.

Please...

Food/Water, Shelter, and Clothing are pretty much the only necessities of life. Anything more is just extra fluff that isn't a necessity.

[thrash]

Something can be a necessity without it being something the government will give you even if it means taking from somebody else.

The rights we talk about all men having are god-given, and require no-one else to satisfy them. You don't have the RIGHT to happiness.. you have the right to persue happiness without the government getting in the way.

You don't have the RIGHT to health care... beacuse God didn't give it to you and neither can the government, without taking something from somebody else.

I'm not saying people don't need healthcare in order to not get sick. I'm saying that giving you healthcare means taking something away from somebody else.

These artificial rights are nothing more than 51% of the population agreeing to steal from 49% of the population.

Hopefully John Galt will show up and start the Strike any day now. Michael Moore won't be invited...

[DaveH]

tjamz;193914 wrote:
That's better than I get at Meritcare actually (non-emergency of course). I once called in to have a wart removed, had to wait 2 months before I could get in (was willing to go to any of their clinics even.....not just one particular one w/ a particular Dr....any clinic). I've also had to wait over 6 weeks to get in for a complete annual physical (this was to my regular family practitioner) so I'd say we are already there in this country.

Was the wart on your butt? If so, the doctors were probably all fighting about who had to do it, and it took a few weeks of armwrestling before the loser finally had to do it.

:icon_geek:

[YellowEvo]

[QUOTE=bubba;193716]Well than get a job with benefits... Why should a couple people work and pay taxes so everyone else has free health care... QUOTE]

so being self employed i should be fucked if i come down with some huge sickness after payin for everything i have to have?

[Jim]

thrash;193926 wrote:
Something can be a necessity without it being something the government will give you even if it means taking from somebody else.

The rights we talk about all men having are god-given, and require no-one else to satisfy them. You don't have the RIGHT to happiness.. you have the right to persue happiness without the government getting in the way.

You don't have the RIGHT to health care... beacuse God didn't give it to you and neither can the government, without taking something from somebody else.

I'm not saying people don't need healthcare in order to not get sick. I'm saying that giving you healthcare means taking something away from somebody else.

These artificial rights are nothing more than 51% of the population agreeing to steal from 49% of the population.

Hopefully John Galt will show up and start the Strike any day now. Michael Moore won't be invited...

So the only "rights" we have the ones obtain from god?

[StangerBanger96]

Jim;193955 wrote:
So the only "rights" we have the ones obtain from god?

He was more than likely referring to the "God Given" rights of Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness that the founding fathers spoke of...

[Jim]

This post is deleted!

[amicheze]

StangerBanger96 wrote:
And I will only be happy if I have a Ferrari, a supermodel wife, 1000 acres of land, and free gasoline...therefore by your reasoning the Government should force people to give me these things.

You forgot the little word "PURSUIT."No shit you don't have a right to happiness, but that's not what this thread is about.

thrash wrote:
Something can be a necessity without it being something the government will give you even if it means taking from somebody else.

The rights we talk about all men having are god-given, and require no-one else to satisfy them. You don't have the RIGHT to happiness.. you have the right to persue happiness without the government getting in the way.

You don't have the RIGHT to health care... beacuse God didn't give it to you and neither can the government, without taking something from somebody else.

I'm not saying people don't need healthcare in order to not get sick. I'm saying that giving you healthcare means taking something away from somebody else.

These artificial rights are nothing more than 51% of the population agreeing to steal from 49% of the population.

Hopefully John Galt will show up and start the Strike any day now. Michael Moore won't be invited...

So I can't get health care from the government without taking something from someone else? What exactly are we taking and from whom? By YOUR logic, only 51% of the population will ever have to go to the doctor, and the other 49% will have to fully pay for them. That's obviously ridiculous. Even with our current system, people lose things: time, money, dare I say time and money taking health insurance companies to court? /gasp! Yes, I do know people personally who have had to do that.

Did you forget about the police? Firefighters? They're basically the same thing - government run and for anyone to use whenever they need. Do we not need them? What are we taking away from whom to keep them running?

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me why we have a lower life expectancy with a better health care system.