Vice presidential debate

[PSiedTSi]

Honestly, thats about all I've heard about the debate too. Palin just talking about energy or the economy when asked something completely different. I think it may hint at overcoaching by the republican party, and her cramming for this debate. Biden was watching his mouth as he had similar troubles as Palin(although his weren't about not knowing what the hell was going on, he just had a differing view than Obama :), which I think is a decent thing because it may give some more balance?). Anyway, She didn't do much to hurt or improve her standings, and that is exactly what is wrong. IMO, they needed a strong showing from Palin to put down all the negative publicity. Did anyone get a count of how many times she said "also"? haha

[Guest]

Grr;239710 wrote:
Good completely one sided post again chuck. She did alot better than anybody thought she would, and the moderator had to ask both of them after their rants to answer the question at hand. Both beat around the bush on some answers but gave a simple yes or no when asked again. Biden on the other hand, based on what ive read as far as plans, straight out lied about their tax policy for one. I didnt like either of their answers about the bailout plan, but i did like palins answers for gay marriage and abortion.
Chuck, you used to put up very informative posts and such, but your really starting to sound like Keith Overbite (Oberman) and PMSnbc. Broaden your topics a little instead of pouring kool aid.

Yes, it was one sided...but it was not untrue.

Seriously, I could only listen to her for so long. Her "facts" were somewhere between straight out lies and exaggerations/stretches of the truth (94 times voted for a tax increase for example....she might want to check those facts a little better).

I quit watching about 20 mins in. Biden at least (IMO) started out somewhat on topic in his responses...yes, he steered away from things that could have opened the door for an attack from Palin, but I felt he actually gave responses to the question and/or countered what Palin was talking about.

As for the tax plan, what was talked about? The fact that they plan on reversing the tax cuts for the wealthy (above $250,000 income earners) that was implemented under Bush? The fact that they want to return them to Reagan Era rates (I liked Reagan btw...I like Bush Sr.....from what I've read, I like Nixon)? The fact that the majority of us won't feel the tax increase? Yes, it is wealth redistribution to a degree, but it's hard to call it redistribution if that money is (presently) being redistributed to the military for their activities in Iraq.

McCain's failure to admit that his deregulations (Edit by tjamz: Only partially true it seems...see below on voting records) have enabled the crisis on wall street (whether needed or not is another story all together) absolutely pushed me from ever voting from him. McCain used to be a maverick. Used to do what was right for the country and say fuck party lines. Now he has sold out in an effort to become president.

Now, if you want the Chuck Schwan approach to fixing our problems:

[LIST=1]
[]Place safeguards for banks that haven't been caught up in this debacle and make sure that they don't get sucked down because of it. There may need to be a little more oversight on this...be it tougher regulation or whatever. Every industry is regulated to a degree...except those ignoring the rules.
[]Punish those involved in predatory lending. Loan sharks are illegal, these people were nothing more than legal loan sharks.
[]Figure out an exit stategy for Iraq. If we can train our soldiers to defend their country in as little as 8 weeks, there is no reason that they can't defend themselves after 6 years.
[]For the time being, we need to get the country back on track financially. This will mean cutting spending....especially on those here illegally. If this doesn't help, there may need to be a tax increase (short term) to do this.
[]Find a way to make healthcare more affordable. The cost of those who don't have healthcare makes it more expensive for those that do. Also, there is no reason why a prescription drug sold in the USA should cost more than the exact same drug sold in Canada, Mexico, Iraq, China, etc... A tax credit for having insurance may help as well, unlike some people who have said they want to tax the money you spend on insurance. Why not open up the insurance pool that politicians get to buy from to the general public? It doesn't cost the gov't a penny to do this and it allows for a choice of insurance providers.
[]Offer incentives for people on welfare to get off the system. Right now there are none. Hell, I'd rather pay a daycare to watch a couple kids while the mom/dad work/go to school than pay the mom/dad to sit home all day and smoke cigarettes and collect a check.
[*]Ultimately have a flat tax...across the board w/ ZERO deductions other than dependants and spouse. You earn $1 you pay $.12...you earn $100, you pay $12.00...etc...
[/LIST]
I'm sure I can think of a bunch of other things, but that should tell you what I am looking for in a candidate.

So, who is going to get me there

1. Both...maybe, though McCain has flip-flopped on this too many times that I can only trust him partially to do this....So the credit will go to Obama (1/2 point for each)
2. Honestly...neither.
3. Obama (1 pt)
4. Obama is more likely to get us closer to balanced...but neither will be successful with their plans. (1/2 pt)
5. Obama (1pt)
6. Neither
7. Neither

So...that means, by my standards, Obama meets my standards on 3 out of 7 points and McCain meets them on 1 of 7.

Hence my support of Obama over McCain.

[Guest]

Grr;239710 wrote:
Good completely one sided post again chuck.....snip..... Broaden your topics a little instead of pouring kool aid.

Name the topic, I'll gladly add my perspective on it.

[SmitEvo]

If it were only that easy chuck...

[Guest]

Oh, I agree. It's not easy. But it is something to shoot for.

[thrash]

how the fuck is bank deregulation at fault for this?

i've already told you -- BLOCKING the psychotic antics of fannie and freddie (who contribute money to political campaigns!!) and BLOCKING the ability of the FED to buy GSE debt, and BLOCKING oversight on CRA -- all of this was blocked by the democrats. They needed CRA for social reasons and they needed Fannie/Freddie for lobbyist backscratching. And they needed avenues to continue funding for ACORN.

The government always complains that when something goes messy in the market, it is because there wasn't enough government regulation.. when in reality the situation is ALWAYS that the government has fucked up the market to begin with and has resisted any lessening of its interventionist powers. Expanding Government is a tautology because the answer to EVERY problem of failed interventionism is MORE intervention.

You should be pissed off at McCain because he voted for this bullshit bailout.. and because he's fallen for the bullshit line that "now we must do something" or "now we need to regulate this stuff".

No, he was right years ago when he wanted to regulate the government.

[3_Series]

Chuck for write-in president?

[Grr]

Once again, thrash chimes in with his almost perfect "economist" opinion. The fact is chuck, bill clinton was a MAJOR backer in 1999 to de-regulate the banking industry. In fact it was the DEMOCRATS ALONE, including bill clinton that passed the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act in 1999. If you want to learn something about how this whole mess happened, look it up. Im sure thrash will agree with me 100% on this one. It is highly documented be ALL the leading finacial-ists that this was the sole reason why this whole mess has happened. You have to thank the democrat party alone for everything that is going on with the economy at the moment, and the most recently, Nancy peloci.
Another thing, McCain was one of the most important people in 2003 that sounded the alarm on fannie and freddie, you cannot deny that because it is true. All the democrats that are pretending to be your freinds now are the very people that said nothing was wrong before, and are the same people that have been receiving money and adding to the corruption.
And one more thing, did you see what happened today? The stupid bill passed. This bill is going to be the sole downfall of the US economy from this point on. The 440 pages of PORK in this thing is simply immoral! Society and the markets that could have fixed all of this have made their opinon already. Since the bill has been signed, as of this moment the DOW is down 150, with a total drop of almost 500 points since the news of this bill passing has been anounced. This may be the first day the DOW goes below 10k in years, and i assure you, this bill will fail in all aspects of the word.
(at this point i would like a reply to this post from Thrash)
You have really dissapointed me lately for real, your posts are a blur of the facts to suit your own agenda and that quote of mine you have in your sig i no longer stand by, REMOVE IT

[SmitEvo]

3_Series;239767 wrote:
Chuck for write-in president?

No!?

[Link]

Oh Snap...

[Guest]

thrash;239760 wrote:
how the fuck is bank deregulation at fault for this?

You should be pissed off at McCain because he voted for this bullshit bailout.. and because he's fallen for the bullshit line that "now we must do something" or "now we need to regulate this stuff".

No, he was right years ago when he wanted to regulate the government.

Seriously....did you read my post? At all?

tjamz wrote:
I think it is funny that the republican party is saying "We need more oversight on wall street, we need more regulation, blah blah blah blah blah...." when McCain is directly responsible for the deregulation of wallstreet and banking. <u>Had they said "You know, after de-regulation there are bound to be some institutions that fail to regulate themselves, and unfortunately that leads to market shake up from time to time, but in the end we end up with stronger institutions that have learned from their mistakes and the mistakes of others...." I might have actually considered changing my vote.</u> Instead the John Kerry'ed the issue and flip-flopped....I mean they were for it before they were against it...right?

You MIGHT want to check the facts about what I posted before you make claims about my feelings on things.

Do I think that the rules need to be looked at again? Sure. Why not? I heard all sorts of complaints when SOX (Sarbanes-Oxley) law was passed on how it was going to hurt corporate America...blah blah...truth of the matter, it didn't. In fact it made the corporation that I used to work for a much better place to work.

I'd love to believe that the businesses of the world (whatever industry) would do better w/o any oversight, but the fact of the matter is that EVERY time I've seen it happen, they fail.

[Guest]

Grr;239773 wrote:
Once again, thrash chimes in with his almost perfect "economist" opinion. The fact is chuck, bill clinton was a MAJOR backer in 1999 to de-regulate the banking industry. ** In fact it was the DEMOCRATS ALONE, including bill clinton that passed the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act in 1999.** If you want to learn something about how this whole mess happened, look it up.
The bills were introduced in the Senate by Phil Gramm (R-TX) and in the House of Representatives by James Leach (R-IA). The bills were passed by a 54-44 vote along party lines with Republican support in the Senate and by a 343-86 vote in the House of Representatives. Nov 4, 1999: After passing both the Senate and House the bill was moved to a conference committee to work out the differences between the Senate and House versions. The final bill resolving the differences was passed in the Senate 90-8-1 and in the House: 362-57-15. This 'veto proof legislation' was signed into law by President Bill Clinton on November 12, 1999
The banking industry had been seeking the repeal of Glass-Steagall since at least the 1980s. In 1987 the Congressional Research Service prepared a report which explored the case for preserving Glass-Steagall and the case against preserving the act.
Here is the official voting record, if you care to see it

Alabama
Aye AL Sessions, Jefferson [R]
Aye AL Shelby, Richard [R]
Alaska
Aye AK Murkowski, Frank [R]
Aye AK Stevens, Ted [R]
Arizona
Aye AZ Kyl, Jon [R]
Aye AZ McCain, John [R]
Arkansas
Aye AR Hutchinson, Tim [R]
Nay AR Lincoln, Blanche [D]
California
Nay CA Boxer, Barbara [D]
Nay CA Feinstein, Dianne [D]
Colorado
Aye CO Allard, Wayne [R]
Aye CO Campbell, Ben [R]
Connecticut
Nay CT Dodd, Christopher [D]
Nay CT Lieberman, Joseph [I]
Delaware
Aye DE Roth, William [?]
Nay DE Biden, Joseph [D]
Florida
Aye FL Mack, Connie [?]
Nay FL Graham, Bob [D]
Georgia
Aye GA Coverdell, Paul [?]
Nay GA Cleland, J. [D]
Hawaii
Nay HI Akaka, Daniel [D]
Nay HI Inouye, Daniel [D]
Idaho
Aye ID Craig, Larry [R]
Aye ID Crapo, Michael [R]
Illinois
Nay IL Durbin, Richard [D]
Present IL Fitzgerald, Peter [R]
Indiana
Aye IN Lugar, Richard [R]
Nay IN Bayh, B. [D]
Iowa
Aye IA Grassley, Charles [R]
Nay IA Harkin, Thomas [D]
Kansas
Aye KS Brownback, Samuel [R]
Aye KS Roberts, Pat [R]
Kentucky
Aye KY Bunning, Jim [R]
Aye KY McConnell, Mitch [R]
Louisiana
Nay LA Breaux, John [D]
Nay LA Landrieu, Mary [D]
Maine
Aye ME Collins, Susan [R]
Aye ME Snowe, Olympia [R]
Maryland
Nay MD Mikulski, Barbara [D]
Nay MD Sarbanes, Paul [D]
Massachusetts
Nay MA Kennedy, Edward [D]
Nay MA Kerry, John [D]
Michigan
Aye MI Abraham, Spencer [?]
Nay MI Levin, Carl [D]
Minnesota
Aye MN Grams, Rod [?]
Nay MN Wellstone, Paul [D]
Mississippi
Aye MS Cochran, Thad [R]
Aye MS Lott, Trent [R]
Missouri
Aye MO Ashcroft, John [?]
Aye MO Bond, Christopher [R]
Montana
Aye MT Burns, Conrad [R]
Nay MT Baucus, Max [D]
Nebraska
Aye NE Hagel, Charles [R]
Nay NE Kerrey, J. [?]
Nevada
Nay NV Bryan, Richard [?]
Nay NV Reid, Harry [D]
New Hampshire
Aye NH Gregg, Judd [R]
Aye NH Smith, Bob [R]
New Jersey
Nay NJ Lautenberg, Frank [D]
Nay NJ Torricelli, Robert [D]
New Mexico
Aye NM Domenici, Pete [R]
Nay NM Bingaman, Jeff [D]
New York
Nay NY Moynihan, Daniel [?]
Nay NY Schumer, Charles [D]
North Carolina
Aye NC Helms, Jesse [R]
Nay NC Edwards, John [D]
North Dakota
Nay ND Conrad, Kent [D]
Nay ND Dorgan, Byron [D]
Ohio
Aye OH DeWine, Michael [R]
Aye OH Voinovich, George [R]
Oklahoma
Aye OK Nickles, Don [R]
No Vote OK Inhofe, James [R]
Oregon
Aye OR Smith, Gordon [R]
Nay OR Wyden, Ron [D]
Pennsylvania
Aye PA Santorum, Richard [R]
Aye PA Specter, Arlen [R]
Rhode Island
Aye RI Chafee, John [?]
Nay RI Reed, John [D]
South Carolina
Aye SC Hollings, Ernest [D]
Aye SC Thurmond, J. [R]
South Dakota
Nay SD Daschle, Thomas [D]
Nay SD Johnson, Tim [D]
Tennessee
Aye TN Frist, William [R]
Aye TN Thompson, Fred [R]
Texas
Aye TX Gramm, Phil [R]
Aye TX Hutchison, Kay [R]
Utah
Aye UT Bennett, Robert [R]
Aye UT Hatch, Orrin [R]
Vermont
Aye VT Jeffords, James [I]
Nay VT Leahy, Patrick [D]
Virginia
Aye VA Warner, John [R]
Nay VA Robb, Charles [?]
Washington
Aye WA Gorton, T. [?]
Nay WA Murray, Patty [D]
West Virginia
Nay WV Byrd, Robert [D]
Nay WV Rockefeller, John [D]
Wisconsin
Nay WI Feingold, Russell [D]
Nay WI Kohl, Herbert [D]
Wyoming
Aye WY Enzi, Michael [R]
Aye WY Thomas, Craig [R]

[Guest]

I shall keep my sig, thank you very much.

[Guest]

But yes, I will put the fannie mae/freddie mac blunder on the Dems mostly....and even Obama. Contrary to popular belief on here, I am not an Obama nut swinger. I find myself shifting more to the right each day.....even though I am voting for a democratic president.

BTW, Obama did issue the following in March of 2007 regarding the predatory practices of sub-prime mortgage companies.

http://obama.senate.gov/press/070322-obama_urges_ber/

[Guest]

Now, on the finalized bill, Biden did in fact vote for the bill...as did all but 9 of the other senators present that day....here is that vote

Alabama
Aye AL Sessions, Jefferson [R]
Nay AL Shelby, Richard [R]
Alaska
Aye AK Murkowski, Frank [R]
Aye AK Stevens, Ted [R]
Arizona
Aye AZ Kyl, Jon [R]
No Vote AZ McCain, John [R]
Arkansas
Aye AR Hutchinson, Tim [R]
Aye AR Lincoln, Blanche [D]
California
Aye CA Feinstein, Dianne [D]
Nay CA Boxer, Barbara [D]
Colorado
Aye CO Allard, Wayne [R]
Aye CO Campbell, Ben [R]
Connecticut
Aye CT Dodd, Christopher [D]
Aye CT Lieberman, Joseph [I]
Delaware
Aye DE Biden, Joseph [D]
Aye DE Roth, William [?]
Florida
Aye FL Graham, Bob [D]
Aye FL Mack, Connie [?]
Georgia
Aye GA Cleland, J. [D]
Aye GA Coverdell, Paul [?]
Hawaii
Aye HI Akaka, Daniel [D]
Aye HI Inouye, Daniel [D]
Idaho
Aye ID Craig, Larry [R]
Aye ID Crapo, Michael [R]
Illinois
Aye IL Durbin, Richard [D]
Indiana
Aye IN Bayh, B. [D]
Aye IN Lugar, Richard [R]
Iowa
Aye IA Grassley, Charles [R]
Nay IA Harkin, Thomas [D]
Kansas
Aye KS Brownback, Samuel [R]
Aye KS Roberts, Pat [R]
Kentucky
Aye KY Bunning, Jim [R]
Aye KY McConnell, Mitch [R]
Louisiana
Aye LA Breaux, John [D]
Aye LA Landrieu, Mary [D]
Maine
Aye ME Collins, Susan [R]
Aye ME Snowe, Olympia [R]
Maryland
Aye MD Sarbanes, Paul [D]
Nay MD Mikulski, Barbara [D]
Massachusetts
Aye MA Kennedy, Edward [D]
Aye MA Kerry, John [D]
Michigan
Aye MI Abraham, Spencer [?]
Aye MI Levin, Carl [D]
Minnesota
Aye MN Grams, Rod [?]
Nay MN Wellstone, Paul [D]
Mississippi
Aye MS Cochran, Thad [R]
Aye MS Lott, Trent [R]
Missouri
Aye MO Ashcroft, John [?]
Aye MO Bond, Christopher [R]
Montana
Aye MT Baucus, Max [D]
Aye MT Burns, Conrad [R]
Nebraska
Aye NE Hagel, Charles [R]
Aye NE Kerrey, J. [?]
Nevada
Aye NV Reid, Harry [D]
Nay NV Bryan, Richard [?]
New Hampshire
Aye NH Gregg, Judd [R]
Aye NH Smith, Bob [R]
New Jersey
Aye NJ Lautenberg, Frank [D]
Aye NJ Torricelli, Robert [D]
New Mexico
Aye NM Bingaman, Jeff [D]
Aye NM Domenici, Pete [R]
New York
Aye NY Moynihan, Daniel [?]
Aye NY Schumer, Charles [D]
North Carolina
Aye NC Edwards, John [D]
Aye NC Helms, Jesse [R]
North Dakota
Aye ND Conrad, Kent [D]
Nay ND Dorgan, Byron [D]
Ohio
Aye OH DeWine, Michael [R]
Aye OH Voinovich, George [R]
Oklahoma
Aye OK Inhofe, James [R]
Aye OK Nickles, Don [R]
Oregon
Aye OR Smith, Gordon [R]
Aye OR Wyden, Ron [D]
Pennsylvania
Aye PA Santorum, Richard [R]
Aye PA Specter, Arlen [R]
Rhode Island
Aye RI Chafee, Lincoln [R]
Aye RI Reed, John [D]
South Carolina
Aye SC Hollings, Ernest [D]
Aye SC Thurmond, J. [R]
South Dakota
Aye SD Daschle, Thomas [D]
Aye SD Johnson, Tim [D]
Tennessee
Aye TN Frist, William [R]
Aye TN Thompson, Fred [R]
Texas
Aye TX Gramm, Phil [R]
Aye TX Hutchison, Kay [R]
Utah
Aye UT Bennett, Robert [R]
Aye UT Hatch, Orrin [R]
Vermont
Aye VT Jeffords, James [I]
Aye VT Leahy, Patrick [D]
Virginia
Aye VA Robb, Charles [?]
Aye VA Warner, John [R]
Washington
Aye WA Gorton, T. [?]
Aye WA Murray, Patty [D]
West Virginia
Aye WV Byrd, Robert [D]
Aye WV Rockefeller, John [D]
Wisconsin
Aye WI Kohl, Herbert [D]
Nay WI Feingold, Russell [D]
Wyoming
Aye WY Enzi, Michael [R]
Aye WY Thomas, Craig [R]

And Chuck must eat crow here, as it appears the "no vote" was from McCain...so at this time he was neither for nor against it apparently...or it had overwhelming support so his vote was not even needed at that point. Either way, I will give him the benefit of the doubt and admit that he didn't vote for it at this time.

However, to pin this entirely on the dems or repubs is stupid. Of the "Nay" votes 7 of the 8 were from dems.

[Guest]

thrash;239760 wrote:
i've already told you -- BLOCKING the psychotic antics of fannie and freddie (who contribute money to political campaigns!!) and BLOCKING the ability of the FED to buy GSE debt, and BLOCKING oversight on CRA -- all of this was blocked by the democrats. They needed CRA for social reasons and they needed Fannie/Freddie for lobbyist backscratching. And they needed avenues to continue funding for ACORN.

I agree with this statement. No where have I said that I don't. Admittedly, I had to research a bit about CRA. But what you are suggesting is.....ready for this.....regulations!!!!
**
I will place the majority of the blame on the Dems for everything you posted above**...but in doing so, I must say they were acting like conservatives (by definition) by not wanting the regulations/oversight.

[Guest]

And....now for the house vote on that bill:

Alabama
Aye AL-1 Callahan, H. [R]
Aye AL-2 Everett, Terry [R]
Aye AL-3 Riley, Bob [R]
Aye AL-4 Aderholt, Robert [R]
Aye AL-5 Cramer, Robert [D]
Aye AL-6 Bachus, Spencer [R]
Aye AL-7 Hilliard, Earl [D]
Alaska
Aye AK-0 Young, Donald [R]
Arizona
Aye AZ-1 Salmon, Matt [R]
Aye AZ-2 Pastor, Edward [D]
Aye AZ-3 Stump, Robert [R]
Aye AZ-4 Shadegg, John [R]
Aye AZ-5 Kolbe, James [R]
Aye AZ-6 Hayworth, John [R]
Arkansas
Aye AR-1 Berry, Robert [D]
Aye AR-2 Snyder, Victor [D]
Aye AR-3 Hutchinson, Asa [R]
No Vote AR-4 Dickey, Jay [R]
California
Aye CA-1 Thompson, C. [D]
Aye CA-2 Herger, Walter [R]
Aye CA-3 Ose, Doug [R]
Aye CA-4 Doolittle, John [R]
Aye CA-5 Matsui, Robert [D]
Nay CA-6 Woolsey, Lynn [D]
Nay CA-7 Miller, George [D]
Aye CA-8 Pelosi, Nancy [D]
Nay CA-9 Lee, Barbara [D]
Aye CA-10 Tauscher, Ellen [D]
Aye CA-11 Pombo, Richard [R]
Aye CA-12 Lantos, Tom [D]
No Vote CA-13 Stark, Fortney [D]
Aye CA-14 Eshoo, Anna [D]
Nay CA-15 Campbell, Tom [R]
Aye CA-16 Lofgren, Zoe [D]
Aye CA-17 Farr, Sam [D]
Nay CA-18 Condit, Gary [D]
No Vote CA-19 Radanovich, George [R]
Aye CA-20 Dooley, Calvin [D]
Aye CA-21 Thomas, William [R]
Aye CA-22 Capps, Lois [D]
Aye CA-23 Gallegly, Elton [R]
Aye CA-24 Sherman, Brad [D]
Aye CA-25 McKeon, Howard [R]
Aye CA-26 Berman, Howard [D]
Aye CA-27 Rogan, James [R]
Aye CA-28 Dreier, David [R]
Nay CA-29 Waxman, Henry [D]
Aye CA-30 Becerra, Xavier [D]
No Vote CA-31 Martinez, Matthew [D]
Nay CA-32 Dixon, Julian [D]
Nay CA-33 Roybal-Allard, Lucille [D]
Aye CA-34 Napolitano, Grace [D]
Nay CA-35 Waters, Maxine [D]
Aye CA-36 Kuykendall, Steven [R]
Aye CA-37 Millender-McDonald, Juanita [D]
Aye CA-38 Horn, Stephen [R]
Aye CA-39 Royce, Edward [R]
Aye CA-40 Lewis, Jerry [R]
Aye CA-41 Miller, Gary [R]
Aye CA-43 Calvert, Ken [R]
Aye CA-44 Bono Mack, Mary [R]
Aye CA-45 Rohrabacher, Dana [R]
Aye CA-46 Sanchez, Loretta [D]
Aye CA-47 Cox, C. [R]
Aye CA-48 Packard, Ron [R]
Aye CA-49 Bilbray, Brian [R]
Nay CA-50 Filner, Bob [D]
Aye CA-51 Cunningham, Randall [R]
Aye CA-52 Hunter, Duncan [R]
Colorado
Aye CO-1 DeGette, Diana [D]
Aye CO-2 Udall, Mark [D]
No Vote CO-3 McInnis, Scott [R]
Aye CO-4 Schaffer, Bob [R]
Nay CO-5 Hefley, Joel [R]
Aye CO-6 Tancredo, Thomas [R]
Connecticut
No Vote CT-1 Larson, John [D]
Nay CT-2 Gejdenson, Sam [D]
Nay CT-3 DeLauro, Rosa [D]
Aye CT-4 Shays, Christopher [R]
Aye CT-5 Maloney, James [D]
Aye CT-6 Johnson, Nancy [R]
Delaware
Aye DE-0 Castle, Michael [R]
Florida
No Vote FL-1 Scarborough, Joe [R]
Aye FL-2 Boyd, F. [D]
Aye FL-3 Brown, Corrine [D]
Aye FL-4 Fowler, Tillie [R]
Nay FL-5 Thurman, Karen [D]
Aye FL-6 Stearns, Clifford [R]
Nay FL-7 Mica, John [R]
Aye FL-8 McCollum, Bill [R]
Aye FL-9 Bilirakis, Michael [R]
Aye FL-10 Young, C. W. [R]
Aye FL-11 Davis, James [D]
Aye FL-12 Canady, Charles [R]
Aye FL-13 Miller, Dan [R]
Aye FL-14 Goss, Porter [R]
Aye FL-15 Weldon, David [R]
Aye FL-16 Foley, Mark [R]
Nay FL-17 Meek, Carrie [D]
Aye FL-18 Ros-Lehtinen, Ileana [R]
Aye FL-19 Wexler, Robert [D]
Aye FL-20 Deutsch, Peter [D]
Aye FL-21 Diaz-Balart, Lincoln [R]
Aye FL-22 Shaw, E. [R]
Nay FL-23 Hastings, Alcee [D]
Georgia
Aye GA-1 Kingston, Jack [R]
Aye GA-2 Bishop, Sanford [D]
Aye GA-3 Collins, Michael [R]
Nay GA-4 McKinney, Cynthia [D]
Nay GA-5 Lewis, John [D]
Aye GA-6 Isakson, John [R]
Aye GA-7 Barr, Bob [R]
Aye GA-8 Chambliss, C. [R]
Aye GA-9 Deal, Nathan [R]
No Vote GA-10 Norwood, Charles [R]
Aye GA-11 Linder, John [R]
Hawaii
Aye HI-1 Abercrombie, Neil [D]
Aye HI-2 Mink, Patsy [D]
Idaho
Aye ID-1 Chenoweth-Hage, Helen [R]
Aye ID-2 Simpson, Michael [R]
Illinois
Nay IL-1 Rush, Bobby [D]
Nay IL-2 Jackson, Jesse [D]
Nay IL-3 Lipinski, William [D]
Nay IL-4 Gutierrez, Luis [D]
Aye IL-5 Blagojevich, Rod [D]
Aye IL-6 Hyde, Henry [R]
Nay IL-7 Davis, Danny [D]
Aye IL-8 Crane, Philip [R]
Nay IL-9 Schakowsky, Janice [D]
Aye IL-10 Porter, John [R]
Aye IL-11 Weller, Gerald [R]
Nay IL-12 Costello, Jerry [D]
Aye IL-13 Biggert, Judy [R]
Aye IL-14 Hastert, J. [R]
Aye IL-15 Ewing, Thomas [R]
Aye IL-16 Manzullo, Donald [R]
Nay IL-17 Evans, Lane [D]
Aye IL-18 LaHood, Ray [R]
Nay IL-19 Phelps, David [D]
Aye IL-20 Shimkus, John [R]
Indiana
Aye IN-1 Visclosky, Peter [D]
Aye IN-2 McIntosh, David [R]
Aye IN-3 Roemer, Timothy [D]
Aye IN-4 Souder, Mark [R]
Aye IN-5 Buyer, Stephen [R]
Aye IN-6 Burton, Dan [R]
Aye IN-7 Pease, Edward [R]
Aye IN-8 Hostettler, John [R]
Aye IN-9 Hill, Baron [D]
Aye IN-10 Carson, Julia [D]
Iowa
Aye IA-1 Leach, James [R]
Aye IA-2 Nussle, James [R]
Aye IA-3 Boswell, Leonard [D]
Aye IA-4 Ganske, Greg [R]
Aye IA-5 Latham, Thomas [R]
Kansas
Aye KS-1 Moran, Jerry [R]
Aye KS-2 Ryun, Jim [R]
Aye KS-3 Moore, Dennis [D]
Aye KS-4 Tiahrt, Todd [R]
Kentucky
Aye KY-1 Whitfield, Edward [R]
Aye KY-2 Lewis, Ron [R]
Aye KY-3 Northup, Anne [R]
Aye KY-4 Lucas, Kenneth [D]
Aye KY-5 Rogers, Harold [R]
Aye KY-6 Fletcher, Ernest [R]
Louisiana
Aye LA-1 Vitter, David [R]
Aye LA-2 Jefferson, William [D]
Aye LA-3 Tauzin, William [R]
Aye LA-4 McCrery, James [R]
Aye LA-5 Cooksey, John [R]
Aye LA-6 Baker, Richard [R]
Aye LA-7 John, Christopher [D]
Maine
Aye ME-1 Allen, Thomas [D]
Aye ME-2 Baldacci, John [D]
Maryland
Aye MD-1 Gilchrest, Wayne [R]
Aye MD-2 Ehrlich, Robert [R]
Aye MD-3 Cardin, Benjamin [D]
Aye MD-4 Wynn, Albert [D]
Aye MD-5 Hoyer, Steny [D]
Aye MD-6 Bartlett, Roscoe [R]
Aye MD-7 Cummings, Elijah [D]
Aye MD-8 Morella, Constance [R]
Massachusetts
Aye MA-1 Olver, John [D]
Aye MA-2 Neal, Richard [D]
Aye MA-3 McGovern, James [D]
Nay MA-4 Frank, Barney [D]
Aye MA-5 Meehan, Martin [D]
Nay MA-6 Tierney, John [D]
Nay MA-7 Markey, Edward [D]
Nay MA-8 Capuano, Michael [D]
Aye MA-9 Moakley, John [D]
Aye MA-10 Delahunt, William [D]
Michigan
Aye MI-1 Stupak, Bart [D]
Aye MI-2 Hoekstra, Peter [R]
Aye MI-3 Ehlers, Vernon [R]
Aye MI-4 Camp, David [R]
Aye MI-5 Barcia, James [D]
Aye MI-6 Upton, Frederick [R]
Aye MI-7 Smith, Nick [R]
Aye MI-8 Stabenow, Debbie Ann [D]
Nay MI-9 Kildee, Dale [D]
Aye MI-10 Bonior, David [D]
Aye MI-11 Knollenberg, Joseph [R]
Aye MI-12 Levin, Sander [D]
Nay MI-13 Rivers, Lynn [D]
Nay MI-14 Conyers, John [D]
Aye MI-15 Kilpatrick, Carolyn [D]
Nay MI-16 Dingell, John [D]
Minnesota
Aye MN-1 Gutknecht, Gilbert [R]
Aye MN-2 Minge, David [D]
Aye MN-3 Ramstad, James [R]
Aye MN-4 Vento, Bruce [D]
Aye MN-5 Sabo, Martin [D]
Nay MN-6 Luther, William [D]
Aye MN-7 Peterson, Collin [D]
Aye MN-8 Oberstar, James [D]
Mississippi
Aye MS-1 Wicker, Roger [R]
Aye MS-2 Thompson, Bennie [D]
Aye MS-3 Pickering, Charles [R]
Aye MS-4 Shows, Ronnie [D]
Nay MS-5 Taylor, Gene [D]
Missouri
Nay MO-1 Clay, William [?]
Aye MO-2 Talent, James [R]
Aye MO-3 Gephardt, Richard [D]
Aye MO-4 Skelton, Ike [D]
Aye MO-5 McCarthy, Karen [D]
Aye MO-6 Danner, Pat [D]
Aye MO-7 Blunt, Roy [R]
Aye MO-8 Emerson, Jo Ann [R]
Aye MO-9 Hulshof, Kenny [R]
Montana
Aye MT-0 Hill, Rick [R]
Nebraska
No Vote NE-1 Bereuter, Douglas [R]
Aye NE-2 Terry, Lee [R]
Aye NE-3 Barrett, Bill [R]
Nevada
Aye NV-1 Berkley, Shelley [D]
Aye NV-2 Gibbons, James [R]
New Hampshire
Aye NH-1 Sununu, John [R]
Aye NH-2 Bass, Charles [R]
New Jersey
Aye NJ-1 Andrews, Robert [D]
Aye NJ-2 LoBiondo, Frank [R]
Aye NJ-3 Saxton, H. [R]
Aye NJ-4 Smith, Christopher [R]
Aye NJ-5 Roukema, Marge [R]
Aye NJ-6 Pallone, Frank [D]
Aye NJ-7 Franks, Bob [R]
Aye NJ-8 Pascrell, William [D]
Aye NJ-9 Rothman, Steven [D]
Aye NJ-10 Payne, Donald [D]
Aye NJ-11 Frelinghuysen, Rodney [R]
Aye NJ-12 Holt, Rush [D]
Aye NJ-13 Menendez, Robert [D]
New Mexico
Aye NM-1 Wilson, Heather [R]
Aye NM-2 Skeen, Joseph [R]
Aye NM-3 Udall, Tom [D]
New York
Aye NY-1 Forbes, Michael [R]
Aye NY-2 Lazio, Rick [R]
Aye NY-3 King, Peter [R]
Aye NY-4 McCarthy, Carolyn [D]
Aye NY-5 Ackerman, Gary [D]
Aye NY-6 Meeks, Gregory [D]
Aye NY-7 Crowley, Joseph [D]
Aye NY-8 Nadler, Jerrold [D]
Aye NY-9 Weiner, Anthony [D]
Aye NY-10 Towns, Edolphus [D]
Aye NY-11 Owens, Major [D]
Aye NY-12 Velazquez, Nydia [D]
Aye NY-13 Fossella, Vito [R]
Aye NY-14 Maloney, Carolyn [D]
Aye NY-15 Rangel, Charles [D]
Nay NY-16 Serrano, José [D]
Aye NY-17 Engel, Eliot [D]
Aye NY-18 Lowey, Nita [D]
Aye NY-19 Kelly, Sue [R]
Aye NY-20 Gilman, Benjamin [R]
Aye NY-21 McNulty, Michael [D]
Aye NY-22 Sweeney, John [R]
Aye NY-23 Boehlert, Sherwood [R]
Aye NY-24 McHugh, John [R]
Aye NY-25 Walsh, James [R]
Nay NY-26 Hinchey, Maurice [D]
Aye NY-27 Reynolds, Thomas [R]
Aye NY-28 Slaughter, Louise [D]
Aye NY-29 LaFalce, John [D]
Aye NY-30 Quinn, Jack [R]
Aye NY-31 Houghton, Amory [R]
North Carolina
Aye NC-1 Clayton, Eva [D]
Aye NC-2 Etheridge, Bob [D]
Aye NC-3 Jones, Walter [R]
Aye NC-4 Price, David [D]
Aye NC-5 Burr, Richard [R]
Aye NC-6 Coble, Howard [R]
Aye NC-7 McIntyre, Mike [D]
Aye NC-8 Hayes, Robin [R]
Aye NC-9 Myrick, Sue [R]
Aye NC-10 Ballenger, Cass [R]
No Vote NC-11 Taylor, Charles [R]
Aye NC-12 Watt, Melvin [D]
North Dakota
Aye ND-0 Pomeroy, Earl [D]

[Guest]

Ohio
Aye OH-1 Chabot, Steven [R]
Aye OH-2 Portman, Robert [R]
Aye OH-3 Hall, Tony [D]
Aye OH-4 Oxley, Michael [R]
Aye OH-5 Gillmor, Paul [R]
Aye OH-6 Strickland, Ted [D]
Aye OH-7 Hobson, David [R]
Aye OH-8 Boehner, John [R]
Nay OH-9 Kaptur, Marcy [D]
Nay OH-10 Kucinich, Dennis [D]
Aye OH-11 Jones, Stephanie [D]
Aye OH-12 Kasich, John [R]
Aye OH-13 Brown, Sherrod [D]
Aye OH-14 Sawyer, Thomas [D]
Aye OH-15 Pryce, Deborah [R]
Aye OH-16 Regula, Ralph [R]
Aye OH-17 Traficant, James [D]
No Vote OH-18 Ney, Robert [R]
Aye OH-19 LaTourette, Steven [R]
Oklahoma
Aye OK-1 Largent, Steve [R]
Aye OK-2 Coburn, Thomas [R]
Aye OK-3 Watkins, Wes [R]
Aye OK-4 Watts, J.C. [R]
Aye OK-5 Istook, Ernest [R]
Aye OK-6 Lucas, Frank [R]
Oregon
Aye OR-1 Wu, David [D]
Aye OR-2 Walden, Greg [R]
Aye OR-3 Blumenauer, Earl [D]
Nay OR-4 DeFazio, Peter [D]
Aye OR-5 Hooley, Darlene [D]
Pennsylvania
Nay PA-1 Brady, Robert [D]
Nay PA-2 Fattah, Chaka [D]
Aye PA-3 Borski, Robert [D]
Aye PA-4 Klink, Ron [D]
Aye PA-5 Peterson, John [R]
Aye PA-6 Holden, Tim [D]
Aye PA-7 Weldon, W. [R]
Aye PA-8 Greenwood, James [R]
No Vote PA-9 Shuster, Bill [R]
Aye PA-10 Sherwood, Donald [R]
No Vote PA-11 Kanjorski, Paul [D]
Aye PA-12 Murtha, John [D]
Aye PA-13 Hoeffel, Joseph [D]
Nay PA-14 Coyne, William [D]
Aye PA-15 Toomey, Patrick [R]
Aye PA-16 Pitts, Joseph [R]
Aye PA-17 Gekas, George [R]
Aye PA-18 Doyle, Michael [D]
Aye PA-19 Goodling, William [R]
Aye PA-20 Mascara, Frank [D]
Aye PA-21 English, Philip [R]
Rhode Island
Aye RI-1 Kennedy, Patrick [D]
Aye RI-2 Weygand, Robert [D]
South Carolina
Nay SC-1 Sanford, Marshall [R]
Aye SC-2 Spence, Floyd [R]
Aye SC-3 Graham, Lindsey [R]
Aye SC-4 DeMint, Jim [R]
Aye SC-5 Spratt, John [D]
Aye SC-6 Clyburn, James [D]
South Dakota
Aye SD-0 Thune, John [R]
Tennessee
Aye TN-1 Jenkins, William [R]
Aye TN-2 Duncan, John [R]
Aye TN-3 Wamp, Zach [R]
Aye TN-4 Hilleary, Van [R]
Aye TN-5 Clement, Robert [D]
Aye TN-6 Gordon, Barton [D]
Aye TN-7 Bryant, Ed [R]
Aye TN-8 Tanner, John [D]
Aye TN-9 Ford, Harold [D]
Texas
Aye TX-1 Sandlin, Max [D]
Aye TX-2 Turner, James [D]
Aye TX-3 Johnson, Samuel [R]
Aye TX-4 Hall, Ralph [R]
Aye TX-5 Sessions, Peter [R]
Nay TX-6 Barton, Joe [R]
Aye TX-7 Archer, Bill [R]
Aye TX-8 Brady, Kevin [R]
Aye TX-9 Lampson, Nicholas [D]
Aye TX-10 Doggett, Lloyd [D]
Nay TX-11 Edwards, Thomas [D]
Aye TX-12 Granger, Kay [R]
Aye TX-13 Thornberry, William [R]
No Vote TX-14 Paul, Ronald [R]
Aye TX-15 Hinojosa, Rubén [D]
Aye TX-16 Reyes, Silvestre [D]
Aye TX-17 Stenholm, Charles [D]
Aye TX-18 Jackson-Lee, Sheila [D]
Aye TX-19 Combest, Larry [R]
Aye TX-20 Gonzalez, Charles [D]
Aye TX-21 Smith, Lamar [R]
Aye TX-22 DeLay, Thomas [R]
Aye TX-23 Bonilla, Henry [R]
Aye TX-24 Frost, Jonas [D]
Aye TX-25 Bentsen, Ken [D]
Aye TX-26 Armey, Richard [R]
Aye TX-27 Ortiz, Solomon [D]
Nay TX-28 Rodriguez, Ciro [D]
Aye TX-29 Green, Raymond [D]
Aye TX-30 Johnson, Eddie [D]
Utah
Aye UT-1 Hansen, James [R]
Aye UT-2 Cook, Merrill [R]
Aye UT-3 Cannon, Christopher [R]
Vermont
Nay VT-0 Sanders, Bernard [I]
Virginia
Aye VA-1 Bateman, Herbert [R]
Aye VA-2 Pickett, Owen [D]
Aye VA-3 Scott, Robert [D]
Aye VA-4 Sisisky, Norman [D]
Aye VA-5 Goode, Virgil [R]
Aye VA-6 Goodlatte, Robert [R]
Aye VA-7 Bliley, Tom [R]
Aye VA-8 Moran, James [D]
Aye VA-9 Boucher, Frederick [D]
Aye VA-10 Wolf, Frank [R]
Aye VA-11 Davis, Thomas [R]
Washington
Nay WA-1 Inslee, Jay [D]
Aye WA-2 Metcalf, Jack [R]
Aye WA-3 Baird, Brian [D]
Aye WA-4 Hastings, Doc [R]
Aye WA-5 Nethercutt, George [R]
Aye WA-6 Dicks, Norman [D]
Nay WA-7 McDermott, James [D]
Aye WA-8 Dunn, Jennifer [R]
Aye WA-9 Smith, Adam [D]
West Virginia
No Vote WV-1 Mollohan, Alan [D]
Aye WV-2 Wise, Robert [D]
Aye WV-3 Rahall, Nick [D]
Wisconsin
Aye WI-1 Ryan, Paul [R]
Nay WI-2 Baldwin, Tammy [D]
Aye WI-3 Kind, Ronald [D]
Aye WI-4 Kleczka, Gerald [D]
Nay WI-5 Barrett, Thomas [D]
Aye WI-6 Petri, Thomas [R]
Nay WI-7 Obey, David [D]
Aye WI-8 Green, Mark [R]
Aye WI-9 Sensenbrenner, F. [R]
Wyoming
Aye WY-0 Cubin, Barbara [R]

For those keeping track at home:

Dems in Favor: 151 Against: 50 No Vote: 4
Reps in Favor: 210 Against: 5 No Vote: 10

So, tell me again Gary how this was "In fact it was the DEMOCRATS ALONE, including bill clinton that passed the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act in 1999."

Again, I'm keeping the sig until you can disprove what I have posted.

[thrash]

I am in favor of fixing the government when the government is broken. CRA is a government program. Fannie/Freddie are "quasi" public organizations. The FED, which is this evil quasi-private mostly public thing, is definitely Uncle Sam's problem.

All of the stuff I was mentioning that the dems blocked reform over were institutions of government. I am for putting the brakes on stupid government. I am against regulating the market place (in general).

I actually may have misread what you posted originally. I just refuse to give one inch on the idea that there wasn't sufficient market regulation going on here. There was too much market intervention by government or quasi-governmental agencies, and those agencies and programs operated without sufficient economic oversight and as such distorted the market place making whatever foolish decisions individual actors might have made considerably worse and higher impact. Had the government NOT been involved, the bubble would have burst sooner, and there'd likely be no pressure for the feds to do anything.

As it is, all of us just bought mortgages we couldn't afford. Congratulations -- you now own a share of however many tanked subprime mortgages were out there.

I want my own country. Desperately.

[Guest]

thrash;239831 wrote:
I am in favor of fixing the government when the government is broken. CRA is a government program. Fannie/Freddie are "quasi" public organizations. The FED, which is this evil quasi-private mostly public thing, is definitely Uncle Sam's problem.

I agree. But all of the blame cannot be put on Freddie/Fannie. AIG, WaMu, Lehman, and the rest of failed banks/investors made just as risky of choices because they were essentially following the same rules as F/F.

What I would like to know is if the CRA loans were more likely/less likely/just as likely to have the problems of non-CRA loans. I'm having trouble finding that data so if you have info, please share. I may like to debate, but I like to learn more than win a debate.

All of the stuff I was mentioning that the dems blocked reform over were institutions of government. I am for putting the brakes on stupid government. I am against regulating the market place (in general).

We can agree on this point

I actually may have misread what you posted originally. I just refuse to give one inch on the idea that there wasn't sufficient market regulation going on here. There was too much market intervention by government or quasi-governmental agencies, and those agencies and programs operated without sufficient economic oversight and as such distorted the market place making whatever foolish decisions individual actors might have made considerably worse and higher impact. Had the government NOT been involved, the bubble would have burst sooner, and there'd likely be no pressure for the feds to do anything.

I'm not sure what (if any) regulations need to be put in place....or if they would be of help. I do think there needs to be rules for banks as they are essentially dealing with the health/well being of the economy. How drastic those rules need to be, is a matter of debate, and I'm willing to bet that you, me and Gary aren't that far apart on this issue.

As it is, all of us just bought mortgages we couldn't afford. Congratulations -- you now own a share of however many tanked subprime mortgages were out there.

See my post below this one for a view from a Libertarian on this....I don't necessarily agree with him or disagree with the guy I'm going to quote...but I'm throwing it out for discussion.

I want my own country. Desperately.

Me too, I'd make a great dictator.