Is GOD real?
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KA-T_240;198390 wrote:
slow car race!ya you kinda smoked me at the strip
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out there;199466 wrote:
i haven't gone back to read the entire thread, yet... but i will once i get home from work. i'm a bit worried that this topic may have gone awry (as nearly every discussion here does).or instead of awry it was just stronger public opinion to one side than the other....
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guys, i must say that i am really surprised at how this thread went... i really wasn't sure what to expect, but i thought it would get ugly (as many religious discussions do). having been around for the life of this board, i've seen so many things turn sour and get locked or deleted that i stopped reading and posting for quite a while.
i'm glad to see that many of the regulars here have matured and stopped their ad hominems in favor of a more level-headed approach to disagreements. i will grant that the most difficult position to hold (agnostic) is represented by the guys that i would expect, and so does not reflect poorly on the people that walk the razor edge of theism. it heartens me to read so many people stating different positions without name-calling... i don't know what to say. chuck, wes and jim (and i'm sure others helped through the years) seem to have done a great job leading by example.it has taken me a fair number of years wrestling internally and externally (with a catholic family) about my stance on the non/existence of an infinite entity. i will not get into the finer points, but i will say that i'm confident to declare that there is something out there, i cannot indicate with more specificity my beliefs.
one thing that has occurred to me, that seems to be overlooked by so many religious zealots and fundamentalists, is that jesus taught love, unconditional and unbound love for everyone: no ifs or buts, all-encompassing love for each other regardless of creed, position, actions, background or physique. i don't necessarily feel that one must adhere to the dogma of a religious sect (please, excuse the pejorative term, but they are all sects) to really be "close to god" or "holy." i believe that what one should do is live a virtuous life, be a good person, treat people fairly and be honest (with the world and yourself).
a man can repeat the apostles' creed, lord's prayer, hail mary and -insert preferred religious doctrine- until death while beating his wife and sodomizing his child... yet still be considered a better person than most because he goes to church every sunday and does the former list of rituals. actions speak louder than words, and the man that takes it on the chin from his boss for not cheating a senile old customer and doesn't go to church because he works two jobs to feed and clothe his family will get my support because he is doing what jesus would do. i use that because it should make you think differently about the phrase "what would jesus do?"
in the end, life isn't about using people as means to reach ends; it's about people being the ends. if you're curious, kant discusses this in one of his shorter works. i hate much of what kant says, but here... he is spot on.
http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext04/ikfpm10.txtplease, excuse the crude language and lack of delineation where needed, but this is in the interest of the message, not meta-principles governing it
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Going to church is def not a requirement, but it is a good place to get together with people with similar interests/beliefs and hang out, and discuss the things you share in common (sorta like this forum is for car people). It also helps to have those friends from church inspire you and also hold you accountable when you screw up.
DaveH
'94 Supra- 7.77 @ 176mph -
correct, though organized religion may be the scapegoat of many of my rants, it does serve a purpose. much as i rail against the joke that this is a land with a separation between church and state (even though it's not explicitly stated, so i think it's only in the minds of most people here), i know that politics and religion will forever be intertwined; locke and hobbes knew this, jefferson and his cohorts knew this. truth of the matter is, organized religion makes people easier to govern; largely, because they control themselves - hitler was no fool, stalin was.
as i was mentioning earlier, we should be treating people as having intrinsic value, going to a church regularly is something you don't (necessarily) do for the sermon, communion or prayer, you do it because it gives you a sense of community and togetherness with people of similar beliefs. things come and go, as a member of various other boards on the net, i can tell you that i see a fair number of people come and go on dsm boards because they're there on the premise of discussing issues with their car... not (always) because of the community. a church, on the other hand, is something that you typically participate in until death. you are born into a church (i know what i said earlier, but this is being less aggressive and more specific) and welcomed with open arms no matter who you are; in this aspect, churches encourage christ-ian love. by the same token, sects (read: cults) require some membership qualifications be met (ie owning something) before you'll get the time of day.
i didn't fully understand this until i came across a friend that owns a small store which i hadn't visited in several months. i apologized for not coming by, because i hadn't been playing much music while in college... and he said that it didn't matter, just stop by anytime. that hit me like a truck. "what? i don't have to be looking to buy something? but... but... how will you stay open? don't you need business?" it's not about the money, money is just a means; it's about the people and the togetherness that we all share, the mutuality of being human and not using each other.
money, things, those come and go all the time. people, life, love, family, friends - these are the things that make life worth living, these are what we americans take for granted everyday. being thankful for all of the joys that give life meaning and accepting the hardships as just matters of things... these are things that you don't need "god" to do. if "god" or "christ" is the crutch that gets you going and that helps you along into living virtuously, so much the better; but, if you can manage to live as i mentioned without support from the infinite entity... my hat is off to you.
that being said, i feel that this is a good place to ask the question: how sure are you that there is no unmoved mover? no all-powerful being in control of everything? how sure are you, a finite three-dimensional being, that you can possibly understand the infinitude and magnificence of this infinite universe well enough to state definitively: "there is no god, no supreme being? to put a finer point on this question, can you even wrap your head around the concept of "infinite"? consider
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out there;199515 wrote:
guys, i must say that i am really surprised at how this thread went... i really wasn't sure what to expect, but i thought it would get ugly (as many religious discussions do). having been around for the life of this board, i've seen so many things turn sour and get locked or deleted that i stopped reading and posting for quite a while.
i'm glad to see that many of the regulars here have matured and stopped their ad hominems in favor of a more level-headed approach to disagreements. i will grant that the most difficult position to hold (agnostic) is represented by the guys that i would expect, and so does not reflect poorly on the people that walk the razor edge of theism. it heartens me to read so many people stating different positions without name-calling... i don't know what to say. chuck, wes and jim (and i'm sure others helped through the years) seem to have done a great job leading by example.it has taken me a fair number of years wrestling internally and externally (with a catholic family) about my stance on the non/existence of an infinite entity. i will not get into the finer points, but i will say that i'm confident to declare that there is something out there, i cannot indicate with more specificity my beliefs.
one thing that has occurred to me, that seems to be overlooked by so many religious zealots and fundamentalists, is that jesus taught love, unconditional and unbound love for everyone: no ifs or buts, all-encompassing love for each other regardless of creed, position, actions, background or physique. i don't necessarily feel that one must adhere to the dogma of a religious sect (please, excuse the pejorative term, but they are all sects) to really be "close to god" or "holy." i believe that what one should do is live a virtuous life, be a good person, treat people fairly and be honest (with the world and yourself).
a man can repeat the apostles' creed, lord's prayer, hail mary and -insert preferred religious doctrine- until death while beating his wife and sodomizing his child... yet still be considered a better person than most because he goes to church every sunday and does the former list of rituals. actions speak louder than words, and the man that takes it on the chin from his boss for not cheating a senile old customer and doesn't go to church because he works two jobs to feed and clothe his family will get my support because he is doing what jesus would do. i use that because it should make you think differently about the phrase "what would jesus do?"
in the end, life isn't about using people as means to reach ends; it's about people being the ends. if you're curious, kant discusses this in one of his shorter works. i hate much of what kant says, but here... he is spot on.
http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext04/ikfpm10.txtplease, excuse the crude language and lack of delineation where needed, but this is in the interest of the message, not meta-principles governing it
See the thing is though, jesus taught that you arn't saved by being a good person, or going to church, or any thing that you do... You're saved by the grace of god. If you are following and believing in him, you should want to follow his laws, and please him, aka be a good person, but being a good person does NOT save you.
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ahh, but you're getting caught up in the meta-principle. here is a better way to look at this problem:
would you rather be employed by a man who only pays you a living wage because the law enforces it or a man who pays you what you're worth?the answer is obviously the latter. if you're only behaving well and treating others fairly because you think there is a god watching you to make sure you don't screw up, than you're just as morally black as the man who only beats his wife when no one is looking. you should be doing the right thing because it's the right thing, not because someone will tattle on you if you do otherwise. that's one reason why kant was so amazing, he created a sound ethics system without bringing in any god.
if memory serves correctly, this is just one of the inconsistencies in the new testament.
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out there;199557 wrote:
ahh, but you're getting caught up in the meta-principle. here is a better way to look at this problem:
would you rather be employed by a man who only pays you a living wage because the law enforces it or a man who pays you what you're worth?the answer is obviously the latter. if you're only behaving well and treating others fairly because you think there is a god watching you to make sure you don't screw up <snip>
Thats not what Klush said, or what the bible teaches. God isn't up there watching you just waiting to say "gotcha". If you believe and follow god, you will naturally become "the guy that pays you what you are worth" to use your analogy.
DaveH
'94 Supra- 7.77 @ 176mph -
DaveH;199585 wrote:
Thats not what Klush said, or what the bible teaches. God isn't up there watching you just waiting to say "gotcha". If you believe and follow god, you will naturally become "the guy that pays you what you are worth" to use your analogy.Exactly....
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lol My friends and I had this discussion while we were drunk one night. 4 guys talking about religious and love stuffs. weird huh? lol
anyways, yes I believe in God and Jesus.
why? because I feel that we did not evolve from monkeys or any of those kind of BS. If so then why are there still other type of monkeys that haven't evolve yet and why (us) humans already reached our stage of evolution today?We came from some comet that hit the earth about a billion years ago and that little cell turned into a little thing which evolved to who we are today?? LOL
OMG, do you know how detail or complicated on how the human body works like? Eyes, nose, mouth, ears, touch, feel, heart, and on top of that our brains is even more complicated!.. All of those were not done by a cell that came from some stupid rock falling from the sky one day and we evolved from that due to good sunlights and weather... LOL
There's more information I wanna write out but it's 6 am in the morning and I havn't sleep yet so whatever... what are your thoughts?
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well, dave, it does seem that it has been spun into a chicken or the egg situation; i'm not exactly sure how to respond to it.
"following the lord in actions, but not believing" vs "believing in the lord leading to proper actions"it is a point worthy of attention, just not at this hour (for me).
before i depart, spec-r needs a response: let's entertain the notion of life coming from this comet - where did it originate? how much time are you allowing for evolution?
in the instance of an infinite timeline, anything can happen, unless it defies the laws of physics/thermodynamics. now keep in mind, these laws are only well-substantiated theories AND they are only tested on this planet. euclid was right, the shortest distance between to points is a straight line... unless you're working with the surface of a sphere. what about introducing another 1-8 dimensions? is the straight line, in xyz axes terms, still the shortest distance. start adding unknowns into the equation, and you start to see that you really know far less than you thought. -
This has turned into a great discussion. For the most part I am somewhere in between out there and Dave in my beliefs. I believe in God, I believe in Jesus, and I believe in evolution (of some sort.....heck even Pope John II believed in evolution to a degree). I'm not saying we came from monkeys, but I do think we evolved from caveman/cro-magnon, etc... and don't feel that this is a contradiction to the word of God. Who's to say God isn't evolving us to suit the environments that we currently live in? I mean, lets just look at the different races of people on earth. Darker skinned people originate from near the equator, lighter skinned people tend to be closer to the poles. Like it or not, slavery also influenced the traits of many races of people due to selective breeding (only the biggest/strongest allowed to breed....this was not just limited to black people...slavery existed well before America was "discovered"), this is a form of evolution in my book.
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