Ron Paul
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Bassplayer;198454 wrote:
I'm also extremely in favor of staying in war with Iraq at least for the moment. Immediate withdrawl is not the answer. We need to come up with a good exit stradegy, not just pack up and leave.What I'm trying to figure out w/ Iraq is this:
We can take a group of individuals, train them from 8-10 weeks and have them ready to fight in another country, but it takes us 5 years to train citizens of that country to defend it....and they still can't do it by themselves? Sounds to me like the Iraqis don't want to defend their country...and if they don't want to, why should we?
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bubba;198459 wrote:
Boohoo get a job then and save money, that's what i've done...i havent had mommy and daddy paying my college, the majority of it's been paid in cash by me...I had like a grand in scholarships my first year and that's bout it...and those i earned...Boo hoo back at you...I have went to college based on federal loans and that is the only reason I could have went. My parents made too much money and didnt help me out. I still worked full time and got by because of these loans. These are the loans that make our workforce better by allowing not only the rich or people who saved money to goto college.
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I have learned that getting into debates on Ron Paul tend to get ugly. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and after A LOT of research, I feel he is our best solution. www.ronpaul2008.com is a great resource for anyone that is interested in learning more about him!
Jason
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One big problem with America today is the large push for EVERYONE to go to college. I personally want to go, want to earn the big bucks and learn more. At the same time, we need plenty of "uneducated" laborers willing to work for slightly less in order to advance the economy. This sudden push in the past 20 years that makes it sound like you HAVE to go to college to make it is hurting the economy I think...We still need laborers to do the actual work.
We can have 90% of the population holding an advanced degree of some sort but if none of them are willing to work for less desirable wages/work than their degree says they are worth, the country is screwed.
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StangerBanger96;198471 wrote:
One big problem with America today is the large push for EVERYONE to go to college. I personally want to go, want to earn the big bucks and learn more. At the same time, we need plenty of "uneducated" laborers willing to work for slightly less in order to advance the economy. This sudden push in the past 20 years that makes it sound like you HAVE to go to college to make it is hurting the economy I think...We still need laborers to do the actual work.We can have 90% of the population holding an advanced degree of some sort but if none of them are willing to work for less desirable wages/work than their degree says they are worth, the country is screwed.
Illegal immigrants FTW!!
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Every American should have the equal right to goto college, no matter how rich or poor, or the color of their skin. I am not saying that everyone should go. Many college students never finish or drop out and are still liable to pay back the loans they received from the government...
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SmitEvo;198474 wrote:
Every American should have the equal right to goto college, no matter how rich or poor, or the color of their skin. I am not saying that everyone should go. Many college students never finish or drop out and are still liable to pay back the loans they received from the government...Sure, and every American should have the same right to buy property in Orange County, no matter how rich or poor, or the color of their skin.
But nothing about that statement changes the fact that things cost money.
IMO too many people are going into the university system these days. Cheap loans are driving the price through the roof, campuses have little incentive to provide differentiated or good product, and the whole institution has become a "product" and not an endeavour to lay the foundation for life long learning and significant contribution to the state of the art in ones chosen specialty.
No, now people are paying 100k of real money, borrowed from people like you and me, to get a 7 year masters degree in opressed transgendered poetry appreciation. And they'll pay this money back using the awesome earning power that comes with "I can help whoever's next, please. Would you like to supersize that?"
If people just want job training, or to invest in their future earning power, that's fine, but that's not supposed to be college, and that's not something that should cost 20k or more per year for 4 (or more years). You can become an RN for less money and in less time, and actually have training that is meaningful and relevant to your profession.
When everyone has a college education, having a college education will have no value. I've got a friend who is furious that she has a masters degree (in I don't remember what) and she can't find a job paying more than $30k.
I went to a cheap state school on a full academic scholarship. I'm glad that there were scholarships available to me, but they didn't affect whether or not i was going to go somewhere, but they did help decide where I was going.
I suspect I could have gotten into some really hot place like Carnegie Mellon or Cal-Tech, but either would have been like 30k a year out of pocket. I was accepted at UIUC (#5 CS school in the country at the time) but that would have been like 18k / year out of pocket (this was back in 1996)
So instead of all that, I went to the University of Nebraska for free. It was really nice leaving college with no debt, even if people from "fancy" schools look down on me now and then.
I've got a kid now and I know I "should" be saving for him to go to college, but I dont think it's going to be a worthwhile investment in 18 more years unelss some things dramatically change.
For that matter, living in America may not be a worthwhile investment in 18 years.
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I understand your point of view but there are systems in place not to let everybody in college. ACT and SAT scores limit "everybody from going to college" and there are some people that find out that college is not for them. If you are academically accepted you should have a fair right to go to college. Its not your fault you were born in the ghetto and your have nothing. So since you are a smart guy, what if the only way you could have went to college is through loans or grants, but the government would not offer them. Would you think that is fair? This keeps the quality of our labor force higher so we dont have to hire professionals from other countries. As for you picking a cheaper college, that was your investment. If you would have choosen a higher prestiged college you perhaps could be making more money in the future. Either way you choose your oppurtunity cost and are happy with your decision.
...and back to the orange county statement. Every American has an equal right to buy property there, I just dont expect the government to pay for that. Education yes....luxury housing no. It is comparing apples to oranges.
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SmitEvo;198481 wrote:
I just dont expect the government to pay for that. Education yes....luxury housing no. It is comparing apples to oranges.Well, according to your value system, sure.
Getting to dick around and drink and nail easy women for 4-5 years on somebody elses dime, while occsionally rolling into class now and then sounds like luxury to me!
I'm willing to listen to arguments that the government should be in the subsidizing education business, but not when those arguments have an expectation that the government "give" you an education as an axiomatic premise, or that people somehow have an intrinsic right to an unspecified level of educational instruction.
There are a lot of strange perverse affects of the government financial aid system. You've seen some of them mentioned in this thread.
Certainly I'm not against financial aid. I'm worried about government financial aid -- it never comes with no strings attached (potentially a good thing), but they're usually the wrong strings (a bad thing). Invariably the government will manipulate the education market by withholding money from institutions that don't capitulate to its whims.
In this sense, federal financial aid is just another backdoor mechanism for the feds to regulate education.
The excess demand from students created by loose aid money has the same effect on the education market as it did on the housing market. I'm not interested in bailing out all that bad economic decision making.
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thrash;198480 wrote:
I've got a kid now and I know I "should" be saving for him to go to college, but I dont think it's going to be a worthwhile investment in 18 more years unelss some things dramatically change.I feel bad for your kid with ideas like yours. You aren't saving for him to go to college, yet you don't think the government should offer financial aid?? So unless you expect your kids to get full rides, you better have some plan because otherwise they will just end up with a high school diploma. And if things go how you think, that everyone will have a college degree in the future, your kids will need at least that.
torbs;198330 wrote:
He really seems to go back to traditional conservativism (no income tax and replacing it with NOTHING, i love the idea...however, in order to do that we'd have to get rid of the 16th ammendment, which may not be the easiest thing to doHow much will they have to cut to get rid of income tax if they don't replace it with something?? I understand they would save some by just cutting the programs and the ppl working for them, but i doubt if it will make up for how much they are no longer bringing in.
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thrash;198485 wrote:
Well, according to your value system, sure.Getting to dick around and drink and nail easy women for 4-5 years on somebody elses dime, while occsionally rolling into class now and then sounds like luxury to me!
I'm willing to listen to arguments that the government should be in the subsidizing education business, but not when those arguments have an expectation that the government "give" you an education as an axiomatic premise, or that people somehow have an intrinsic right to an unspecified level of educational instruction.
There are a lot of strange perverse affects of the government financial aid system. You've seen some of them mentioned in this thread.
Certainly I'm not against financial aid. I'm worried about government financial aid -- it never comes with no strings attached (potentially a good thing), but they're usually the wrong strings (a bad thing). Invariably the government will manipulate the education market by withholding money from institutions that don't capitulate to its whims.
In this sense, federal financial aid is just another backdoor mechanism for the feds to regulate education.
The excess demand from students created by loose aid money has the same effect on the education market as it did on the housing market. I'm not interested in bailing out all that bad economic decision making.
See now your stereotyping that all colleges students do is get drunk and have sex with women and not focus on school So you basically did the same thing then right? But somehow you got your shit together and are in the process of a graduate degree. Why more school? Didnt get enough of that in your undergrad? I think the main point is we know there are some bad apples out there that may take advantage of the system, but there are also some good students just like yourself who became smarter and invested into education. I am not saying that you used any federal aid, but not everyone is lucky like you. If the government was not in the business than major financial institutions would be charging us alot more in interest. If you compare any of my federal and private loans, the higher interest rate goes to the private companies. Just think if they had control of everything. Either way this could be argued forever and without true financial data that the government is getting screwed by backing loans that create revenue for them, I am done. I understand that inflation, cpi, and other economic factors way in on almost every level. In my opinion this is just better for the American Public so we can keep up with other countries education levels and keep our jobs and not give them to some immigrant who moved here because we are not skilled enough to perform the job. -
inspector01;198490 wrote:
I feel bad for your kid with ideas like yours. You aren't saving for him to go to college, yet you don't think the government should offer financial aid?? So unless you expect your kids to get full rides, you better have some plan because otherwise they will just end up with a high school diploma.This is getting waaay off topic, but there are student loans and you can work your way through school. Thats how I did it. It built a lot of character and you really appreciate school a lot more than if you go for free.
That said, I started college funds for my kids. Go figure.
DaveH
'94 Supra- 7.77 @ 176mph -
I agree that ppl should pay towards their college education and i don't necessarily care if the government gives away money for school. As far as i know, the government doesn't pay for ppls schooling, they may give some money (a small portion of ppls tuition), but the rest is loans. I support financial aid for loans to students at better rates and make them easier to get since i can't get federal loans and that sucks.
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SmitEvo;198492 wrote:
See now your stereotyping that all colleges students do is get drunk and have sex with women and not focus on schoolwell, i was mostly trying to be funny, and i was trying to point out that "luxury" and "education" aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. How many people here are 1st-generation college students? Maybe your parents or their parents didn' go to college and had a perfectly wonderful life.
Basically, I object to the idea that everybody has the "right" to attend college and that the government is going to pay for it if need be.
If the government was not in the business than major financial institutions would be charging us alot more in interest. If you compare any of my federal and private loans, the higher interest rate goes to the private companies.
A good investment is still a good investment at a slightly higher rate? Maybe if the cost of college is just a little bit dearer, people will take it more seriously? I agree that you and I probably won't take this argument anywhere.. and getting rid of financial aid isn't something i feel strongly about either way. I mostly wanted to respond to below...
In my opinion this is just better for the American Public so we can keep up with other countries education levels and keep our jobs and not give them to some immigrant who moved here because we are not skilled enough to perform the job.
Ok, here, I think you are 100% off base.
America is great because of the people that work hard, not because of who gets born here. I want every single smart, hard working person from every other country to come here. That makes life better for all of us, and it continues to make America the #1 place to live.
I want people who are lazy, who expect others to pay for them, and who expect that by virtue of where their parents got knocked up they ought to have their butt wiped for them from cradle to grave.... i want those people OUT.
The American dream isn't being born in America and having an easy life.
The American dream is coming to America, where a free society will unbridle you to do your best work, to be all that you are capable of, and to be rewarded with the fruits of your own labor.
You better beleive i want the smartest people from around the world coming here and "taking jobs".
The only reason you and I aren't speaking German right now is because Germany unfortuneately decided to make it very difficult to be a Jewish scientist early in the 1900s. We developed our nuclear program with their people before they developed their own.
Smart people are attracted to a free society where the fruits of ones own labor and intellect are rewarded. We want to attract the best talent from all over the world, not ensure that Larry Whitebread never loses his job to a "furrener".
But this isn't even a zero-sum game. There's no reason we cannot import smart people, develop our own smart people, and have useful roles for people that aren't world-wide super geniuses. The issue is about attitude, not about capability. And people with an attitude of entitlement are choking this country to death..
If you're talking about keeping illegal immigrants out, I'm right there with you. But for people that want to get here legally so they can work, we need to make that dirt simple. And for people that are high-power-earners with high-demand skills, we need to be recruiting them from other countries, and not doing the crazy crap we do now that makes it so hard for them to get here and stay here.
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inspector01;198490 wrote:
How much will they have to cut to get rid of income tax if they don't replace it with something?? I understand they would save some by just cutting the programs and the ppl working for them, but i doubt if it will make up for how much they are no longer bringing in.Bring spending levels down to what they were in 2000...The federal income tax only accounts for 1/3 of the total federal budget...meaning if there was no federal income tax, the feds would still have $1.8 trillion to spend...
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GarageAlchemist;198444 wrote:
i wasnt eligible for any federal aid this year because my parents income, parents who dont help me pay for school at all. so i really dont care about money from the government, all ive done is pay them so far in my life time.Im in the same boat my dad who claims me as a dependant pays my car insurance that is it nothing more has not given me a more than 50 bucks since i started college. Him making 100,000 plus dollars a year get me no financial aid shitty situation.
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bubba;198483 wrote:
You can get into college with bad act or sat scores...just not gonna be some high end one...I think some community colleges dont have a cut off....and if u cant do good on them you'll get buried in college anyways...As far as getting into college not sure how prestiguos people think NDSU is but you can be mildly retarded and make it into that school. They recommend certain GPA's or ACT scores but the will still let people in anyways.
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