*2008 Presidential Thread* McCain vs Obama *Poll*

[Guest]

So, now the question is, IF Obama gets in and gets some of his programs through that fix some of our current problems, will those on the far right give him credit for this or will they instead claim that Bush's programs are what fixed the problems, Obama was just there at the right time?

[DaveH]

tjamz;221298 wrote:
So, now the question is, IF Obama gets in and gets some of his programs through that fix some of our current problems, will those on the far right give him credit for this or will they instead claim that Bush's programs are what fixed the problems, Obama was just there at the right time?

Please list a program or two that he has that is a solution to a problem.

[Guest]

I'm not saying he does/doesn't. He isn't my ideal candidate either. But lets just use one of his "ideas". Let's say he goes to Iran, sits down with the leaders of that country and convinces them to allow IAC inspectors and give up it's weapons grade nuke program....which they (in my scenario...maybe not reality, but none of us can predict the future) agree to and actually follow. In this case, he may have stopped another war from starting/expanding. IMO, that would be a successful policy.

Because, again IMO, there are only 2 ways to end a war...and they should be pursued in the following order:

1. Come to a peaceful conclusion.
   If that fails
2. Kill everyone who disagrees with you.

[DaveH]

tjamz;221303 wrote:
I'm not saying he does/doesn't. He isn't my ideal candidate either. But lets just use one of his "ideas". Let's say he goes to Iran, sits down with the leaders of that country and convinces them to allow IAC inspectors and give up it's weapons grade nuke program....which they (in my scenario...maybe not reality, but none of us can predict the future) agree to and actually follow. In this case, he may have stopped another war from starting/expanding. IMO, that would be a successful policy.

Because, again IMO, there are only 2 ways to end a war...and they should be pursued in the following order:

1. Come to a peaceful conclusion.
   If that fails
2. Kill everyone who disagrees with you.

IMO, there are 2 ways to end a war... they should be pursued in the following order:

1. Win
2. Lose

If Obama goes over and convinces Iran that we are really good guys and they shouldn't be trying to kill all of us infidels, I'll give him all the props in the world.

[Guest]

DaveH;221309 wrote:
IMO, there are 2 ways to end a war... they should be pursued in the following order:

1. Win
2. Lose

But how do you arrive at those results? Either peaceful surrender by one side or the others, or kill everyone who doesn't agree with you.

If Obama goes over and convinces Iran that we are really good guys and they shouldn't be trying to kill all of us infidels, I'll give him all the props in the world.

But by not at least attempting diplomacy, what options do we have? Kill/imprison everyone who doesn't agree with us? That won't work...it didn't work for Hitler in WWII and won't work for us now....especially with the war-crime laws currently in force. My view is avoid war at all cost, but IF you are left with no choice but to go to war, fucking annihilate your opponent as quickly as possible w/o regard to civilian casualty..... IOW speak softly and carry a big stick. I believe it was a Republican President (albeit progressive-republican who advocated for Universal Health Care and National Health Insurance) by the name of Teddy Roosevelt.

[drift86]

Haha first off a country leader like that of iran will not listen to a "new" leader like obama if there is still "war" as u call it in iraq. As long as there is still a threat in another terrorist country there will always be threat in iran and others that have nukes or chemical weapons. No matter how many years pass we will always have this problem.

[DaveH]

tjamz;221311 wrote:
But how do you arrive at those results? Either peaceful surrender by one side or the others, or kill everyone who doesn't agree with you.
But by not at least attempting diplomacy, what options do we have? Kill/imprison everyone who doesn't agree with us? That won't work...it didn't work for Hitler in WWII and won't work for us now....especially with the war-crime laws currently in force. My view is avoid war at all cost, but IF you are left with no choice but to go to war, fucking annihilate your opponent as quickly as possible w/o regard to civilian casualty..... IOW speak softly and carry a big stick. I believe it was a Republican President (albeit progressive-republican who advocated for Universal Health Care and National Health Insurance) by the name of Teddy Roosevelt.

The only problem with your argument, is that you are assuming we are trying diplomacy with rational people. They would rather cut Obama's head off with a spoon and send it back to the US in a bag if they had their way. By having the US even showing up at the table, they see it as a sign of weakness on our part and rally their people around the fact that they are weakening us. The only thing they understand is force and death. We have to make it imminently clear that one misstep on their part and we crush them like a 300lb man stepping on a grape.

[Grr]

You are absolutely right dave, many people dont realize this aspect. Most, if not all of people in these areas have been bred, raised, taught, etc. one thing: the west is the devil and must be killed at all cost. They have no respect for life, liberty, or advancement. If they had their way, anyone that disagreed with them would be dead and we would live in a pre-1900's world ruled by an absolute fascist dictator for all of eternity. These are not civilized people in any sense of the word. One of the main reasons we dont associate with iran (obama doesnt get this point) is its absolute hatred of our ally isreal. Iran wont even acknowledge that the halocaust happened, and refers to israel as "a stinking corpse that i vow to destroy in any way possible". If someone said that about one of your freinds, would you sit down and have make up sex with them? Fuck no you would go kick their ass.

[Guest]

I never said they were rational people. I never even said it would work to talk with them, I just said it is a necessary step prior to declaring war upon them. If they are defiant and refuse to cooperate, we crush every facility that we even think may have anything to do with any of their nuclear programs.....if they still don't want to talk, we take down the entire country.

Remember that Iranians are not un-familiar with a form of democracy. Prior to February 1979, they were a democratic people. Yes, the leaders are tyrants, but their people may/may not be (I'm guessing a little of both). Iran is (IMO) the best bet for democracy in the middle east. But really, why do they have to follow our form of gov't? They could have a democracy and still not be civil in their actions....it's not the same over here as it is over there, and probably never will be. Their traditions (as a country/people) date back thousands of years, whereas ours really only date back to 1776. Who are we to tell them to change their culture/views. The way I see it is like this, even if we killed every single Iraqi and Iranian citizen living over there, we would not stop terrorism/hatred towards us. If someone killed a friend of yours, would you be willing to listen to them or would you retaliate at every chance you had. In their eyes we are the terrorists.

Imagine if the roles were reversed and Iraq had invaded Canada and started forcing their ideas on them....would we sit back idly and watch our would we see that as an act of aggression and start gearing up in the event that they invaded our country?

[DaveH]

tjamz;221322 wrote:
I never said they were rational people. I never even said it would work to talk with them, I just said it is a necessary step prior to declaring war upon them. ?

I'd agree with you if we weren't helping their master plan just by showing up at talks.

tjamz;221322 wrote:
Who are we to tell them to change their culture/views. ?

We are the one shining beacon of freedom and hope in the world (I know, the lefty's don't see it that way). We aren't telling them to do anything, we are simply allowing them the opportunity.

tjamz;221322 wrote:
Imagine if the roles were reversed and Iraq had invaded Canada and started forcing their ideas on them....would we sit back idly and watch our would we see that as an act of aggression and start gearing up in the event that they invaded our country?

You are comparing apples to dogfood. See answer above this one.

[StangerBanger96]

To all who say we are a Democracy, you are wrong, we are a Republic.

[Guest]

tjamz;221322 wrote:
I never said they were rational people. I never even said it would work to talk with them, I just said it is a necessary step prior to declaring war upon them. ?

I'd agree with you if we weren't helping their master plan just by showing up at talks.

I honestly don't see how it can hurt. Does it show weakness if we go in and demand that they stop their nuclear programs, etc....? I know we don't negotiate with terrorists, but really, what other solution is there to try short of killing all of them?

tjamz;221322 wrote:
Who are we to tell them to change their culture/views. ?

We are the one shining beacon of freedom and hope in the world (I know, the lefty's don't see it that way). We aren't telling them to do anything, we are simply allowing them the opportunity.

I know full good and well that we are the one shining beacon of hope & freedom....if we weren't you and I wouldn't be having this conversation. But what if they don't follow our ways once we've gone to war with them (ie Iraq)? Do we stay until we've killed all of those who disagree with the opportunity we've presented?

tjamz;221322 wrote:
Imagine if the roles were reversed and Iraq had invaded Canada and started forcing their ideas on them....would we sit back idly and watch our would we see that as an act of aggression and start gearing up in the event that they invaded our country?

You are comparing apples to dogfood. See answer above this one.

I still think I am apples-to-apples on this one. If I really try hard, I can see their view (but I DO NOT AGREE WITH IT):

We tell them that they can/cannot develop weapons, etc...and we impose sanctions when they don't follow our orders. They see that as an act of terror on them. So they retaliate, then we retaliate, and it goes back and forth till there is a full on war....with both sides thinking they are fighting for their freedoms.

Basically, I wish we'd quit fucking around in Iraq, start dropping MOAB's like a MOFO and give them something to be scared of. "shock and awe" turned into "meh and bleh" in my opinion. And I blame both parties for being pussies on this issue.

[bubba]

Already got the AR... now just need to stock up on the ammo, lol... Both canadates suck, I doubt i'll vote if i do it'll be a write in. I would be interested in seeing how long Obama would actually last in office, i'd give it a year tops before someone would off him... Not being racist but there's a lot of ppl that'd be pissed about a black president, especially with some of the stuff he would wanna pass...

[Guest]

Wow. Tons of misinformation here. People honestly think all Arabs want all Americans dead? Please. Watching something other than Fox News for a change. It might change your perspective. A good movie I'd recommend is Control Room, which is about the Al Jazeera network and American media bias. It's really good; give it a shot.

Here's movie 1/9 on YouTube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFnPXnDv6IY&feature=related

Then Google the name Josh Rushing. Seriously, everything the news agencies tell you isn't true.

[Rexwagon]

reshalghoul;221347 wrote:
Wow. Tons of misinformation here. People honestly think all Arabs want all Americans dead? Please. Watching something other than Fox News for a change. It might change your perspective. A good movie I'd recommend is Control Room, which is about the Al Jazeera network and American media bias. It's really good; give it a shot.

Here's movie 1/9 on YouTube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFnPXnDv6IY&feature=related

Then Google the name Josh Rushing. Seriously, everything the news agencies tell you isn't true.

Yeah we know that the knews isnt 100% correct or tells the whole story. But have you been to the middle east? They dont like us. I can tell you that. They hate us, they loathe us. Fuck the news and fuck the middle east. Lets make it a glass parking lot.

[Guest]

Rexwagon;221355 wrote:
Yeah we know that the knews isnt 100% correct or tells the whole story. But have you been to the middle east? They dont like us. I can tell you that. They hate us, they loathe us. Fuck the news and fuck the middle east. Lets make it a glass parking lot.

Perhaps. But do you think that hatred is exacerbated by a U.S. presence on their land, an effective occupation of their country(ies)? I'd say it does. On the flipside, if your family was killed by Iraqi bombers, would you still welcome them as friends? I don't know how I'd feel about that.

Did you watch the video and/or google the name? I find the story surrounding former lieutenant Rushing to be quite interesting.

[Guest]

tjamz;221322 wrote:
I never said they were rational people. I never even said it would work to talk with them, I just said it is a necessary step prior to declaring war upon them. If they are defiant and refuse to cooperate, we crush every facility that we even think may have anything to do with any of their nuclear programs.....if they still don't want to talk, we take down the entire country.

Remember that Iranians are not un-familiar with a form of democracy. Prior to February 1979, they were a democratic people. Yes, the leaders are tyrants, but their people may/may not be (I'm guessing a little of both). Iran is (IMO) the best bet for democracy in the middle east. But really, why do they have to follow our form of gov't? They could have a democracy and still not be civil in their actions....it's not the same over here as it is over there, and probably never will be. Their traditions (as a country/people) date back thousands of years, whereas ours really only date back to 1776. Who are we to tell them to change their culture/views. The way I see it is like this, even if we killed every single Iraqi and Iranian citizen living over there, we would not stop terrorism/hatred towards us. If someone killed a friend of yours, would you be willing to listen to them or would you retaliate at every chance you had. In their eyes we are the terrorists.

Imagine if the roles were reversed and Iraq had invaded Canada and started forcing their ideas on them....would we sit back idly and watch our would we see that as an act of aggression and start gearing up in the event that they invaded our country?

When you're referring to Iran being a democracy prior to 1979, are you referring to the hated Shah we installed? In any case, Iranian government follows a republican form -- just like us.

[DaveH]

reshalghoul;221347 wrote:
Wow. Tons of misinformation here. People honestly think all Arabs want all Americans dead? Please.

No, the topic Chuck asked about was Obama going to talk to Iran, so Ahmadinejad and his lacky's are who we are talking about.

[Rexwagon]

reshalghoul;221359 wrote:
Perhaps. But do you think that hatred is exacerbated by a U.S. presence on their land, an effective occupation of their country(ies)? I'd say it does. On the flipside, if your family was killed by Iraqi bombers, would you still welcome them as friends? I don't know how I'd feel about that.

Did you watch the video and/or google the name? I find the story surrounding former lieutenant Rushing to be quite interesting.

I DONT know where you were in 2002 but I am pretty sure most of us know they hate us, WITHOUT us even being there. They do hate us, before we invaded and after. You just sound like a hippy tree hugger now. Dude face it Haji hates us. If you dont think so then maybe you should join them. we dont need you in our country.

[Guest]

Lol at retard above. Nice quote, "If you dont think so then maybe you should join them. we dont need you in our country." Absolutely hilarious. Spoken like a true idiot. As if you decide who does and who doesn't get to live here. Seriously, stick a fork in an electrical outlet for everyone's sake.

What the hell does the year 2002 signify? Do you think we suddenly had our military in the Middle East at the beginning of the Iraq War in '03? You're even stupider than I thought...