Dyno in Fargo?!?! Interested?!?
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Steve-o wrote:
A car that weighs more is given more load to overcome. It's because if your car did weigh 5000 pounds, the dyno simulates your engine moving 5000 pounds. Then some dyno's (I believe only the mustang) will add load based on an aerodynamic factor @ 50mph. So as the car accelerates load is added to compensate for the car not moving through the air.If you set like a normal Honda on a dyno and say it weighs 8000 pounds, it probably won't be able to move the rollers at all. And a dyno uses how fast the drums are spinning to calculate the torque/HP.
Setting any parameter wrong will greatly affect how a dyno reads. Most of the companies that make dynos that everyone knows come with specific cars parameters already set for most cars...
Cliffs: I have no idea how it works.
Your concept is wrong in this application. You are not moving the weight of the vehicle you are moving the weight of the drums which remains the same from vehicle to vehicle so vehicle weight is irrelevant.
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PSI2HI wrote:
Your concept is wrong in this application. You are not moving the weight of the vehicle you are moving the weight of the drums which remains the same from vehicle to vehicle so vehicle weight is irrelevant.Could be. But why do people get such different results at RS then?
Edit: Ehh nevermind... I think I got it now.
I still want to know why RS's dyno can produce such drastic differences between cars though.
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It's a set factor, your not going to be changing everything for every vehicle. If i recall the dynojet uses 12,000 pound drums. Your moving the weight of the drums not the weight of the vehicle therefor you have a set limitation that will be the same for each vehicle. Not every car is going to dyno the same #'s, not every car has the same setup, not every car is in perfect running order, not every car is tuned the same. There's a lot of variables that can make HUGE difference. I've dyno'd cars that w/ the same motor setup and same turbo setup but a difference in a intake manifold and cam setup accounted to over 100whp difference.
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hum.. any way about the bitching. If Tm got i dyno i would use it. As far as how much i don;t know. As long as the dyno was concistant i wouldn't care what type it was. ASs for self tuning, i would use the the dyno more if i could self tune. If couldn't self tune i would get base lines then street tune then returne for and after pull. As far as learining to tune. AEM Utech Hondata etc. etc. Figure out what ones to sell and then be able to tune those for your customers. For Example Customer A has Honda Civic Wants to buy hondata and have it tuned. YOu sell and tune the car for him. Customers B Desides to do the megasquirt, He is going to probably want to tune his own car.
IMO You should allow out side tunners to be brought in and self tunners to use your dyno. If you didn't. that is one less hour of money that you could have had if you would allow it. Yes i know that there are fine details that need to be Ironed out but why would you not try to sell as much time on it as possible. once that hour goes by you will never be able to sell it again. If you were to buy a dyno, again IMO that only way that it would work is to sell as much time as possible.
Just my .02
Again i would use it 2-3 times a year for pulls if i couldn't tune on it and more if i could
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OK I am going to clear up some misconceptions and that is all. I have used mustang, dynapack, superflow, and mostly Dynojet chassis dynos. An inertia dyno (such as a dynojet) uses 2 2800 lb drums to simulate road load. Force= Mass x Acceleration (speed of the drums= 2800 lbs x # of seconds to accelerate from x mph to y mph) Weight factors CANNOT be changed on a dynojet, although correction factors can.
Ambient air temp (not intake air temp which can be different) can vary HP amounts 1-5 HP w/ SAE correction. SAE correction is established by the Society of Automotive Engineers, and ALL dyno manufacturers use the same correction FACTOR. I would venture to say I am one of say less than 30 people in the USA that have had their dynos in different altitudes, air densities, weather conditions, etc. My correction factor reads within 1% almost all the time. I have ran the same exact car, same setup, etc. in all different places (from florida to maryland to 5000 ft in south dakota) and have had EXTREMELY comparable reults.
SOME mustang dynos and superflow use larger drum (50 inches, similar to 248 dynojets) along with a power absorbtion unit- these are THE best dynos to use. I believe only 1 place in MPLS has one an 1 place in Omaha has one. These are the best of both worlds and can be used as an accelerameter and a load absorbing dyno.
Dynapacks, some mustang models (using small rollers), and smaller dynojet models rely on power absorbtion as the ONLY way of load- this is where there becomes problems for an inexperienced user. Dynapacks must have axle torque and a drivetrain loss # in them before #'s can be derived. If a miscalculated # is entered into the dynapack, engine lockup can happen @ the top of the pull. This is not an issue for the most part, but it does happen (usually inexperienced users) I have seen this happen, and have also seen drivetrain parts break because of extreme pressure loads. Dynapacks are also calibrated from the factory now set-up to read "dynojet" numbers- which also means sometimes they are higher than dynojets. Mustang dyno have also began to be "calibrated" to read like dynojets.
Another thing people need to realize is that an accelerameter works great for 90% of those who use them. Load bearing dynos are used for drivability issues generally. Most drivability issues CANNOT be replicated on a dyno to the T anyway, it needs to be driven to replicate them. WOT tuning is a very small part of tuning- drivability is the primary concern. AFC, emanage, UTEC, etc have NO control with drivability functions (or very little) compared to what actually makes a vehicle operate. The misconception with having more load to pull on the motor is somewhat propaganda put out to sell other dynos. Anything below 650 HP is/ can be just as good if not better than a "load" type of dyno. There are some factors where that is not accurate, but for the most part it is true. I am confiedent in the dynojet to about 900 to 1000 RWHP, as this may be where the pull is too quik to fully load an engine. This applies to EFI vehicles only as load is applied via MAP voltage, and too fast of a sweep may not load the engine enough to exery full Hz from the MAP (turbo, blower, NA, whatever)
Bottom line is ALL are very good pieces of equipment with the right operater. #'s are #'s and they are important to an extent but do realize that all dynos operate a little differently. I only want to clear up misconceptions, and these are my true OPINIONS, but mind you I have used all pieces of equipment and this is a summation of my experience. -
Steve-o wrote:
I had an excel spreadsheet not to long ago where you put the number that you made and it showed what that was equal to on other dynos.You can make a dyno read anyway you want, it's a matter of entering weight. RS motors knows this first hand.
How come tjamz with an Auto WRX and an 18g (dont know the other mods) can make 310whp on their dyno. Then my friend erik with a slowboy racing 20g, every bolt on imaginable, with "the best UTEC tuner in US" tuning only makes 303whp?
tjamz = 19psi
erik = 25psiDidn't want to pick on anyone, just needed an example.
First, I should have said one of the top tuners in the USA, nothing wrong with Dan or the others that got mentioned in here either, though I am not a fan of Godspeed....just my opinion, no need to flame me for it. I know they tuned shanes/Jeremy's car quite well.
I know this has been commented already, but here is my take on what I think caused my #'s to be higher than a lot.
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I was tuned on 111 octane fuel mixed w/ C16 (I did a LOT of runs and had to buy some C16 from RS that they had on hand). C16 I know did not add power, but I'll explain why I mention that I think it was a factor in a bit. I don't know if your friend ran 100, 110, 116 or what kind of gas to get his numbers.
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Due to the fact I was running high octane fuel I was able to lean out the AFR a bit lower than 10.8:1
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Due to the higher octane I was also able to advance the timing more than most are comfortable with.
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I wasn't too concerned about running right at the edge of safety with this set up, I am probably set more lean than most would dare and I know my timing is much more advanced than most as well.
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I also ran colder plugs (2 steps colder) again as a safety measure to allow for leaner ratios w/ less odds of knock.
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Maybe I got lucky and got a great tune, but I think more is possible in speaking w/ TXS and FP...they both told me high 11's and closer to 400 whp are possible on C16.
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Frustrating.............
Impossible to post anything on this forum without cock fights/arguments/'proving you wrong'/internet weiner wrestling/etc....
Thank you Andy for your input. You are probably the most qualified to be speaking in this situation. However I am strongly regreting even asking Fargostreet the original question. Cause I knew people from other shops/competition would get on here and have to argue with someone about information that is 100000% irrelevant to the situation and original question. I strongly appreciate those that offered a simple answer and had a quick piece of insight for us.
I feel like a skipping record player when I say: We know there is more information that we will need to ask the crowd about the dyno later, but I just wanted to know what everyone thought of pricing/how often they'd use it/good idea or bad and why....
I think we have enough information for now... Thanks again to those that didn't flame this thread and offered simple insight!!!
Jason Christopherson
Store Manager
tintmasters -
Yes, you are correct that there will always be fighting/whatnot on here. I didn't expect you to know all the answers to the questions I asked. I just wanted to make sure you considered that there would be questions of that nature. The reason I asked is because it can be make/break for some people on whether they'd use the dyno (for tuning/advanced tuning) or not. Therefore, I don't think that my questions were irrelevant.
Again, to answer your question, yes, I will be using it several times per year (regardless of what your answers are to any of my questions)
EDIT: I shoulda done this in the beginning, but I added a poll to make it easier to sort through the comments.
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Impossible to post anything on this forum without cock fights/arguments/'proving you wrong'/internet weiner wrestling/etc....
Jason- I was not trying to step on anyone's business, although I feel compelled to defend my investment which you had compared earlier in the post (multiple times) As far as market research for this item, I feel this is a good place for you to start asking people. With the advent of the internet in the automotive community, you must realize now people have access to more information than they can fully digest i.e. discussing chassis dynamometers. With you doing market research trying to feel out demand, you need to be confident in your product which involves comparison w/ other product/ equipment.
However I am strongly regreting even asking Fargostreet the original question. Cause I knew people from other shops/competition would get on here and have to argue with someone about information that is 100000% irrelevant to the situation and original question.
You stated all you wanted was to feel out demand which is great, although you also later stated about how great the piece of equipment was compared to "roller dynos", etc. There were many other issues I could go into detail with arguing your previous posts, but I will not. As we all know, this is a public forum and you have every right to verbage as you please. In the same respect, discussion publicly of said issue with information inconsistent with reality will make me chime in and at least give my $.02, correct or not. I have sat out 13 or 14 pages until I finally decided I should at least chime in. I am not posting to hinder your business, as you have a well established facility and look to be around for years to come. I will not, have not, nor ever will speak down about another shop publicly because it is childish and it nets you little or no profit at the end of the year- therefore do NOT extract such from previously stated material. I don't do politics- I tune cars. I simply am stating facts publicly as I know them, to combat misconceptions that could possibly have been derived from this post. I will leave my perception on that note, and I hope it all works out for your establishment.
Besides, I have a really small penis and i could never win a weiner war.
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2wheeler wrote:
I've touched this and what Andy says is entirely true.
:eek:
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dynotune wrote:
Jason- I was not trying to step on anyone's business, although I feel compelled to defend my investment which you had compared earlier in the post (multiple times) As far as market research for this item, I feel this is a good place for you to start asking people. With the advent of the internet in the automotive community, you must realize now people have access to more information than they can fully digest i.e. discussing chassis dynamometers. With you doing market research trying to feel out demand, you need to be confident in your product which involves comparison w/ other product/ equipment.You stated all you wanted was to feel out demand which is great, although you also later stated about how great the piece of equipment was compared to "roller dynos", etc. There were many other issues I could go into detail with arguing your previous posts, but I will not. As we all know, this is a public forum and you have every right to verbage as you please. In the same respect, discussion publicly of said issue with information inconsistent with reality will make me chime in and at least give my $.02, correct or not. I have sat out 13 or 14 pages until I finally decided I should at least chime in. I am not posting to hinder your business, as you have a well established facility and look to be around for years to come. I will not, have not, nor ever will speak down about another shop publicly because it is childish and it nets you little or no profit at the end of the year- therefore do NOT extract such from previously stated material. I don't do politics- I tune cars. I simply am stating facts publicly as I know them, to combat misconceptions that could possibly have been derived from this post. I will leave my perception on that note, and I hope it all works out for your establishment.
Besides, I have a really small penis and i could never win a weiner war.
Andy you crack me up!
I was thanking you for your information, and stated you are the most educated on the subject tby far!!! No need to defend yourself! I was referring to other certain people that always feel the need to chime in on a tintmasters thread with negativity... You are not 'that guy'....Nonetheless, thanks tjamz for the poll! I should have done that right away!
Jason
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The second coming of Jesus. He shows up and says, "Yay, let me drive that bad ass mofo and you will be blessed."
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