Machine Shop to work on H-series...
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why wouldnt they...its just like any other 4 cylinder
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Well acually i called and talked to andy at M&J and he told me that the sleeves are aluminum and can ONLY be honed by an expencive machine that is just to costly to own in fargo. I would appreiciate it if ppl like you two would research on the h22 before you go bashing on torbs for asking a simple question. So next time know what your talking about before posting stupid things.....
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ahah
try quality
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DrifterExtreme wrote:
Well acually i called and talked to andy at M&J and he told me that the sleeves are aluminum and can ONLY be honed by an expencive machine that is just to costly to own in fargo. I would appreiciate it if ppl like you two would research on the h22 before you go bashing on torbs for asking a simple question. So next time know what your talking about before posting stupid things.....done crying??.....i wasnt bashing torbs...you obvisouly took what i said in the wrong way...when i say "why cant they its just like any other 4 cylinder" i was asking why.
but obviously you took it wrong so get your panties out of a bunch.
so....learn how to read before you start posting stupid things.:icon_compress:
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Well john from experience with you your an ass. and from my point of veiw you would mean that in a stupid way. so you got your answer that you were looking for so be done.... and wes i didn't mean to be a dick just that his question was ligit and you knocked him because he was torbs and i didn't think that was right...
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Ok so I did a little homework myself and called my machinist and asked him about this very thing. He said that he treats them the same as any snowmobile cylinder and he CAN hone them. Which leads me to believe that most machine shops can do the same work just choose not to. There is no magical equipment needed to do the work. I didn't say the werent special equipment just something you'd figure all machine shops would have.
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So with this new knowledge you should let torbs know who this machinist is. because i go to M&J and he wouldn't do it and torbs needs this done soon.
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DrifterExtreme wrote:
So with this new knowledge you should let torbs know who this machinist is. because i go to M&J and he wouldn't do it and torbs needs this done soon.Well I have no problem with it but I do live in Fergus Falls and the machine shop is located here as well. His name is Scott Rachels, the name of his buisiness is Scotts Machine Shop and his Number is 218-736-1013. Give him a call. He will have no problem doing the work.
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DrifterExtreme wrote:
Well john from experience with you your an ass. and from my point of veiw you would mean that in a stupid way. so you got your answer that you were looking for so be done.... and wes i didn't mean to be a dick just that his question was ligit and you knocked him because he was torbs and i didn't think that was right...why thank you there young fella
oh and btw...your point of view sucks:icon_bounce:
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weshole wrote:
Well I have no problem with it but I do live in Fergus Falls and the machine shop is located here as well. His name is Scott Rachels, the name of his buisiness is Scotts Machine Shop and his Number is 218-736-1013. Give him a call. He will have no problem doing the work.Thanks for the info...and for the record, I have no problems with M&J. I have only had a crank redone there and I picked it up and paid for it the day it was done...that's it.
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i bet the reason on why they cant or wont is because the h22 has a some weird shit on the cylinder walls that reinforces them i cnat remember what it is called but its the reason that you cant have forged pistons in the h22 without sleeveing it. the h23 does not have that coating thats why in a h22 you cant boost worth shit without sleeves
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jdmprelude wrote:
i bet the reason on why they cant or wont is because the h22 has a some weird shit on the cylinder walls that reinforces them i cnat remember what it is called but its the reason that you cant have forged pistons in the h22 without sleeveing it. the h23 does not have that coating thats why in a h22 you cant boost worth shit without sleevesI know what its called but I will probably misspell it. It's called Nickacell or Nickelcell. Pretty much the same as on 2 stroke snowmobile engines.
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I didn't read it either
The Smooth Science of Cylinder Honing
By Larry Carley
Technical Editor
[email protected]The basics of honing cylinder blocks hasn’t changed much in recent years, but what has changed are the type of abrasives being used by many engine builders.
Silicon carbide and aluminum oxide honing stones of various grits have long been used in power honing machines and portable hones to finish cylinder bores. These types of abrasives are popular with engine builders because of their flexibility and low cost.
But in recent years, a growing number of performance engine builders and custom engine builders have started using the same type of honing stones that production engine rebuilders and OEMs use: diamond abrasives.
Conventional vitrified abrasives cut cleanly and do an excellent job of finishing cylinders – provided the right honing procedure is used to achieve a bore finish that meets OEM specs or the ring manufacturer’s requirements. But as the stones work the surface, they experience a lot of wear. In fact, the stones wear almost as much as the metal surface in the bore. Consequently, the honing machine operator has to constantly monitor the honing process and compensate for stone wear to keep the bores round and straight.
Tim Mera of Sunnen Products Co. in St. Louis, MO, says conventional abrasives require a balance between cutting action and stone life. As a rule, harder metals require softer stones. A softer stone requires less honing pressure, produces less heat and causes less bore distortion. So the bond that’s used in conventional abrasives is designed to wear quickly and expose the abrasives for good cutting action.
OEMs and production engine builders, on the other hand, don’t have the luxury of being able to baby-sit their honing equipment. Because of their higher production volumes, OEMs and PERs have to run their honing operations at higher speeds and with less operator supervision – which means diamond honing stones in most cases.
Diamond has long been the material of choice for high speed, high volume honing applications because of its excellent wear characteristics. Stone life depends on the hardness of the abrasive, the hardness of the substrate that holds the abrasives, the hardness of the engine block, honing speed, load and the amount of metal that’s removed. Diamond is the hardest natural substance known, so it can hold a cutting edge much longer than a conventional abrasive. This means the bond that holds the diamonds can also be harder because it doesn’t have to wear away as quickly to expose fresh stones on the surface.
Typically, a set of conventional vitrified honing stones might do up to 30 V8 blocks (240 to 260 cylinder bores) before they’re worn out and have to be replaced. A set of metal bond diamond honing stones, on the other hand, might do as many as 1500 V8 engine blocks (12,000 cylinder bores) before they have to be replaced. That’s a huge difference.
However, diamonds require a sizable up-front investment. A set of stones can cost $600 to $700 – which is a big jump from $15 to $35 for a set of conventional honing stones. Consequently, many small custom engine builders say diamonds are too expensive for their purposes. They also say they can’t afford to buy several sets of diamond stones to cover all the different bore sizes they do.
Even so, when the longer life of diamond stones is compared to that of conventional abrasives, diamonds may be more economical in the long run, even for a small shop (assuming an operator doesn’t overstroke a bore and break a stone!).
Pim van den Bergh of K-Line Industries, Holland, MI, says he sees more and more shops switching to diamond for a variety of reasons. "We were one of the first to offer diamond for honing machines because we saw its many advantages." He says it gives very consistent results with minimal stone wear.
Pros & Cons Of Diamonds
Because diamond is a harder material and wears more slowly than conventional abrasives, it cuts differently and requires more pressure. Diamond tends to plow through a metal surface rather than cut through it. This can generate heat and distortion in the cylinder bore if the wrong type of equipment, pressure settings or lubrication is used in the honing process. When done correctly, though, it can actually improve bore geometry by producing a rounder, straighter hole.Diamond is also good for rough honing cylinders to oversize because it can remove a lot of metal fast. But finishing requires at least a two-step procedure. Otherwise, the surface will be too rough.
If you’re switching from conventional stones to diamond, you’ll generally have to use a higher grit to achieve the same Ra (roughness average) when finishing a cylinder. For example, if you have been using #220 grit conventional stones to finish cylinders for chrome rings, the equivalent diamond stones might be a #325 grit. If you have been using #280 grit conventional stones to hone for moly rings, the diamond equivalent might be #550 grit stones. The actual numbers will vary somewhat depending on the brand and grade of the stones.
A cylinder bore must have a certain amount of cross hatch and valley depth to retain oil. However, it must also provide a relatively flat surface area to support the piston rings. Ring manufacturers typically specify a surface finish of at least 28 to 35 Ra for chrome rings, and 16 to 25 Ra for moly faced rings. These numbers can be easily obtained with diamond stones and brushing, say those who use this honing technique.
One rebuilder we spoke to says he uses #325 grit diamond stones to end up with an Ra finish in the 20 to 25 range, which he feels is about right for moly rings. For some applications, though, he uses a #500 grit diamond to achieve a smoother finish in the 15 to 20 Ra range.
Final Finish
Something else that’s different when honing with diamond is what diamond does to the bore surface. Diamond tends to leave a lot of torn and folded metal on the surface, causing sort of a smeared appearance that doesn’t make a very good bore finish. Consequently, finishing the cylinder requires a second step to remove the damaged material.One way to get rid of this material is to plateau the surface with a fine grit conventional abrasive (like a #400 or #600 grit stone). All that’s needed are a few strokes to shave off the tops of the peaks. But, the most popular method for finishing the bores when using diamond stones is to sweep the bores with a flexible brush or a nylon bristle plateau-honing tool. Brushing helps remove the torn and folded debris while improving the overall surface finish.
Chris Jensen of Goodson Tools & Supplies in Winona, MN, says, "there’s a lot of confusion about how to finish cylinder bores when using diamond. Since diamond leaves a lot of folded and torn metal on the surface, the bores need to be brushed to remove the debris. Many different names are given to the same tool and process. Some call it a plateau hone, a soft hone, a whisker hone or an ultra-fine hone. But they all do the same thing: they sweep across the surface to remove jagged peaks, folded and torn material."
Bristle style soft hones consist of mono-filament strands that are extrude-molded with a fine abrasive material embedded in the strands. The filaments can be mounted in different types of holders or brushes that can be used with portable or automatic honing equipment.
When finishing the cylinders with a brush, only light pressure is required. The rpm of the brush should be similar to that which the cylinder was originally honed, and no more than 16 to 18 strokes should be applied (some say 8 to 10 strokes are about right). Too many strokes with a brush may produce too smooth a finish that doesn’t hold oil.
Reversing the direction of rotation while brushing helps to remove the unwanted material on the surface. The end result should be a cylinder that provides immediate ring seal with little if any wear on the cylinder wall or rings when the engine is first started.
Sunnen’s Mera says, "brushing the bore after honing makes a huge improvement in the surface finish, whether diamonds or conventional honing stones were used to hone the bore. You can get the overall Ra down to 8 to 12, with RPK (relative peak height) numbers in the 5 to 15 range, and RVK (relative valley depth) numbers in the 15 to 30 range."
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